ceridwynne
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- Apr 3, 2008
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no problem. i mean i am not an expert on the hindu swastika i know that they can be found in many differnt forms and styles. but there are ususally striking differences.
SPLIT: Swastikas
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besavatris
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- Mar 26, 2008
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That just isn't true, for example Germany still has a major problem with neo-nazi's, they have a large voter base and the current government was under threat from them. France's far-right neo-nazi representative Le Penn nearly got voted in for christs sake, it was between him or Chirac (not an easy choice...). Most european countries have a growing far-right partys. Trust us on this, we live in europe.
The BNP are only going to get stronger now with the terrorist attacks and immigration problems. They are not going to go away and will only get more votes as time goes on. I wouldn't be surprised if you start to hear more about them in the future.
Whoops, i didn't really notice the original post was about PRC, i just saw Maverick talking about seeing swastikas in Japan and assumed thats where we were talking about.
The BNP are only going to get stronger now with the terrorist attacks and immigration problems. They are not going to go away and will only get more votes as time goes on. I wouldn't be surprised if you start to hear more about them in the future.
Whoops, i didn't really notice the original post was about PRC, i just saw Maverick talking about seeing swastikas in Japan and assumed thats where we were talking about.
There's a difference between a 'far-right party' and the Nazis though. Even if a far-right leader got elected into power in France, do you think for one minute the UN or even the USA would let them expand their borders via military action and start slaughtering racial minorities?
I think giving the events leading up to WW2, Europe will not let something like this happen again. This doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant of course, but it does mean we should worry more about more important things.
The only way I can see something as huge as the Nazis happening again, is if there is a massive, widespread change of opinion and morality in Europe. And if that happens, it happens, and nothing is going to stop it. For now the average person has no need to turn to parties like the BNP because they are usually moderately happy citizens and can usually find a job.
But I digress, this is nothing to do with swastikas anymore.
I think giving the events leading up to WW2, Europe will not let something like this happen again. This doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant of course, but it does mean we should worry more about more important things.
The only way I can see something as huge as the Nazis happening again, is if there is a massive, widespread change of opinion and morality in Europe. And if that happens, it happens, and nothing is going to stop it. For now the average person has no need to turn to parties like the BNP because they are usually moderately happy citizens and can usually find a job.
But I digress, this is nothing to do with swastikas anymore.
well if it is question time. do you think that the only thing that matters when it comes to fascism and racism is slaughtering people?
take a look at Israel and Palestine for an example of how things could go wrong without turning into full scale slaughter.
take a look at Israel and Palestine for an example of how things could go wrong without turning into full scale slaughter.
ILOVESM
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- Feb 23, 2008
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No, but they are the worst scenarios.
In a democracy the majority get what they want, whether they understand the implications or not. If 75% of Britons want the BNP in power, then unfortunately it will happen. My point was that even if a right-wing party did get into power, I very much doubt they could get away with what the Nazis did, with Europe having the benefit of hindsight about Hitler's rise to power.
Which ties in to my suggestion that we analyse the Nazis unbiasedly and rationally, to learn the best lesson from history.
In a democracy the majority get what they want, whether they understand the implications or not. If 75% of Britons want the BNP in power, then unfortunately it will happen. My point was that even if a right-wing party did get into power, I very much doubt they could get away with what the Nazis did, with Europe having the benefit of hindsight about Hitler's rise to power.
Which ties in to my suggestion that we analyse the Nazis unbiasedly and rationally, to learn the best lesson from history.
Jenlovesherpuge
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- Feb 28, 2008
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granted they would most likely not get to the same point hitler did.
but does that matter? on a more realistic level ANY racist actions and fascist activities effect real people every day on a much more realistic scale and are just as important. to be honest i don't really see what point you are making. because the BNP is not going to kill as many people as hitler it is not worth caring about or paying attention to?
but does that matter? on a more realistic level ANY racist actions and fascist activities effect real people every day on a much more realistic scale and are just as important. to be honest i don't really see what point you are making. because the BNP is not going to kill as many people as hitler it is not worth caring about or paying attention to?
Jakay
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- Mar 13, 2008
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I'm not interested in researching swastikas. I commented on the idea that the Chinese hold the symbol in high regard. Everything I said is correct.
sillybrunette
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- Feb 15, 2008
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well i think we disagree on the level of threat these politics pose.
Only I'm not so sure that part of what you originally stated is correct:
Technically speaking what you're referring to is the Sauwastika/b].
I haven't seen any actual reference that gives conclusive evidence or any evidence otherwise that it pre-dates the swastika.
Though obviously it pre-dates the Nazi swastika.
Though if you have any information to support that claim... some of us are interested.
Technically speaking what you're referring to is the Sauwastika/b].
I haven't seen any actual reference that gives conclusive evidence or any evidence otherwise that it pre-dates the swastika.
Though obviously it pre-dates the Nazi swastika.
Though if you have any information to support that claim... some of us are interested.
blue_teen_queen
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- Apr 12, 2008
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If you look at a Japanese map you will see manji used very often, it is used to denote a Buddhist temple. We used the manji for many years as we are a Buddhist art, but have recently moved away from it because of the lack of understanding of its meaning and the confusion with the Nazi image in the west. It is a little sad for me as I liked manji, but I can understand how it could reignite traumatic memories in people that had suffered under the Nazi’s, therefore it is probably better to try and express its meaning in another way. Our new symbol does this with its interconnecting rings.
Picture of manji at the following address.
http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/articles/manji/img/omote_manji.gif
Picture of new symbol at the following address.
http://www.ozaki-sk.co.jp/goods/img/goods02/goods02_ph03.jpg
Picture of manji at the following address.
http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/articles/manji/img/omote_manji.gif
Picture of new symbol at the following address.
http://www.ozaki-sk.co.jp/goods/img/goods02/goods02_ph03.jpg
symbols are symbols, if they are causing harm (pain) then maybe we can find new symbols as buddhists hehe to not cause suffering others.
or, we can educate our children and help to teach that it has two histories. one hellish and one beutiful, it is very tao is it not? dark and light hehe.
however, if we continue to be ignorant in our classrooms or homes about the symbol, it will remain to be glorified by neo-nazis and misused by rascists.
eventually the ww2 survivors will pass on and maybe it will become less stigmatic.
for instance, lets say people were marked for the black plague or as witches in pre-modern europe. we do not still live in fear of these symbols if they exhisted. i mean, symbols come and go... the ones who should hold it are the eastern religious while the ones to remove it should be the neo-nazis.
seriously, it needs to be talked about, educated on and shown on both sides. take this scenerio.
the christian cross, is used as a religious symbol. however it has caused much suffering (the cross was used for crucifixing people), however today it does not cause mass hystaria when viewed in public for those reasons.
on the other hand, some radicals (kkk) burned crosses and did much harm to minorities in america. therefore, should we ban crosses because a small group used it as a symbol for their hate crimes?
no! educate people on the subject, help make them enlightened individuals that can think and show that it is not just a nazi symbol.
in fact, this thread is going to make me teach it in my class alongside my ww2 teachings on nazi. when i'm a history teacher someday i will show them how it is used and viewed in other parts of the world
whats worse, us upset over nazi symbols or them upset over us buying child labor products? lol
or, we can educate our children and help to teach that it has two histories. one hellish and one beutiful, it is very tao is it not? dark and light hehe.
however, if we continue to be ignorant in our classrooms or homes about the symbol, it will remain to be glorified by neo-nazis and misused by rascists.
eventually the ww2 survivors will pass on and maybe it will become less stigmatic.
for instance, lets say people were marked for the black plague or as witches in pre-modern europe. we do not still live in fear of these symbols if they exhisted. i mean, symbols come and go... the ones who should hold it are the eastern religious while the ones to remove it should be the neo-nazis.
seriously, it needs to be talked about, educated on and shown on both sides. take this scenerio.
the christian cross, is used as a religious symbol. however it has caused much suffering (the cross was used for crucifixing people), however today it does not cause mass hystaria when viewed in public for those reasons.
on the other hand, some radicals (kkk) burned crosses and did much harm to minorities in america. therefore, should we ban crosses because a small group used it as a symbol for their hate crimes?
no! educate people on the subject, help make them enlightened individuals that can think and show that it is not just a nazi symbol.
in fact, this thread is going to make me teach it in my class alongside my ww2 teachings on nazi. when i'm a history teacher someday i will show them how it is used and viewed in other parts of the world
whats worse, us upset over nazi symbols or them upset over us buying child labor products? lol
Not everyone is Buddhist mr.jroe and as a Buddhist you should know that expecting everyone else to behave in a certain way is a rather fruitless endeavour.
The Nazi swastika symbol has one history and its not very beautiful... You see as addressed by slip earlier the issue here is not over the use of the generic swastika symbol but of the use of the specific symbol used by the Nazi's and remeber its been displayed alongside various Nazi paraphenilia just in case there was any any doubt that it was Nazi specific.
Again no-one has disputed that the symbol itself is neutral but I don't think teaching children about how it is used in India and has been used in East Asia will stop neo-nazi's and racists from using the symbol as it was intended by Hitler. Do you know of any other cultures where the swastika is presented as a black symbol on a white circle with a red background? That I am afraid is a symbol specific to Nazism.
jroe this highlights the same process and the same problem, a well known religious symbol is altered so that it comes to represent something entirely different. Should the original symbol be banned? Nope... Does this mean people should go around wearing shirts with a burning cross and KKK written across the top? Nope... You see the symbol of a burning cross has (at least in Western cultures) become emblematic of the Ku Klux Klan its become a seperate symbol from the cross now so to find it offensive does not mean you are incapable of looking at any crosses it just means the particular symbol of that particular group you find repugnant.
Whose 'us' and whose 'them'?
The Nazi swastika symbol has one history and its not very beautiful... You see as addressed by slip earlier the issue here is not over the use of the generic swastika symbol but of the use of the specific symbol used by the Nazi's and remeber its been displayed alongside various Nazi paraphenilia just in case there was any any doubt that it was Nazi specific.
Again no-one has disputed that the symbol itself is neutral but I don't think teaching children about how it is used in India and has been used in East Asia will stop neo-nazi's and racists from using the symbol as it was intended by Hitler. Do you know of any other cultures where the swastika is presented as a black symbol on a white circle with a red background? That I am afraid is a symbol specific to Nazism.
jroe this highlights the same process and the same problem, a well known religious symbol is altered so that it comes to represent something entirely different. Should the original symbol be banned? Nope... Does this mean people should go around wearing shirts with a burning cross and KKK written across the top? Nope... You see the symbol of a burning cross has (at least in Western cultures) become emblematic of the Ku Klux Klan its become a seperate symbol from the cross now so to find it offensive does not mean you are incapable of looking at any crosses it just means the particular symbol of that particular group you find repugnant.
Whose 'us' and whose 'them'?
vandelinderrpm
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- Mar 25, 2008
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oh, i think using the nazi logo is wrong, but wearing swatstikas is not (if not for nazi/rascist) reasons.
what i meant is... the chinese stores that sell exact nazi flags are being ignorant, but having statues with religious symbols on them is not.
i think most mappers agree to that, its the general public that lives in hysteria hehe
what i meant is... the chinese stores that sell exact nazi flags are being ignorant, but having statues with religious symbols on them is not.
i think most mappers agree to that, its the general public that lives in hysteria hehe
some do not look different.
there is swastika (clockwise) and sauvastika (counter clockwise). however hindus and buddhists do use swastikas wiether on angles or in non-angle form... it can look like the nazi logo, however it usually does not include an angry german or a flag with red coloring, eagles and black stripes.
there is swastika (clockwise) and sauvastika (counter clockwise). however hindus and buddhists do use swastikas wiether on angles or in non-angle form... it can look like the nazi logo, however it usually does not include an angry german or a flag with red coloring, eagles and black stripes.
Annihilator1986
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- Mar 21, 2008
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This is absolutely right. There is a distinction there and the two should be viewed separately.
I have just cut and pasted this from an article on the Swedish Shorinji Kempo site. The article uses some kanji that doesn't show here, and refers to pictures that are not shown here. If it looks interesting to you, you can find the original article at this address http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/ . just go to the English page, click on articles in the menu on the right side of the page, and then click on the meaning of manji. It is a shame that a symbol so old and meaningful could have been corrupted in so few years by one ideology. In a perfect world everyone would be educated to others cultures, but we don't live in a perfect world. While manji should be viewed separately to the Nazi symbol, the reality is that many people just don't know the difference and the memory of the Nazi’s is still very vivid.
What are the meaning of the manji and how is it used.
In the East, manji () are often used to represent Buddhist temples on maps (se picture below), and it is commonly understood as a symbol for Buddhism. The symbol itself, however, is older than Buddhism, and it possesses profound meaning.
The manji represents the fluidity of the universe and the foundation of life. The opposites which organize our thoughts - heaven and earth, day and night, positive and negative, male and female, south and north, summer and winter, fire and water, and many others - stand in apparent opposition. Yet each maintains its own distinct nature while finding harmonious relations with its opposite. The shape of the manji reflects this. The perpendicular line symbolically connects heaven and earth, while the horizontal line unites lightness and darkness. The two combined to form a cross represent the universe in harmony beyond the limits of time and space, and from which comes the power that creates and nurtures all things. The trailing lines of the cross represent the wisdom that the universe and all things in it change constantly, never reaching a stage of permanence.
After extensive practice, one may awaken to the fact that one is a vital part of the flow and change of the universe, and discover deep value and significance in living. This provides one with an immovably peaceful state of mind known in Zen as satori. It comes through union with the foundation of the universe. When a person reaches satori, or enlightenment, the interrelations which manji represents can be seen as complete, and the manji becomes a circle.
The omote (front side) manji () represents infinite mercy, or the love in Dharma which permeates the universe and nurtures all things. The ura (back side) manji () represents intellect and strength. The Chinese are said to have derived their symbol for strength () from the ura manji (). Although omote manji and ura manji are customarily used side by side in Buddhism, the manji worn on Shorinjikempo dogi (uniform), in Japan and many foreign countries, is set as the omote manji. In many dojo it is also common to have a kakejiku (hanging scroll) with a calligraphy made by Kaiso with a manji followed by dharma written in sanskrit (se picture to the left).
The spirit of caring for others as well as oneself is shown by the original teachings of Buddha. This path can be followed by using the intellect and strength symbolized by the ura manji to develop oneself into a person who can be relied on, and who can serve humankind as an expression of the mercy and love represented by the omote manji.
The manji symbolizes the spirit of riki ai funi.
The harmony of opposites symbolized in the manji includes the harmony of intellect with mercy, and strength with love. This harmony lies at the heart of Kongo Zen's principle of riki ai funi, a principle which also gives guidance to us in how we are meant to practice and to use the techniques of Shorinji Kempo. Understanding the truths represented by the manji are vital to understanding the heart of Kongo Zen.
From ancient Sanskrit.
The manji was originally a Sanskrit symbol meaning "whirlwind", "good fortune", "foundation of life", and "everchanging universe". After the death of Buddha, it was engraved on stone footprints marking places where he was supposed to have stood and on these footprints one often find manji.
Additionally the manji can also be seen on statues of Buddha as on the picture below.
Statue of Buddha with a manji on the chest. © www.buddhistsupplies.com.
Its use in the West.
The manji was also used in the West as a symbol of good fortune. In its religious usage it referred to the four L's: Light, Life, Love, and Liberty.
What are the meaning of the manji and how is it used.
In the East, manji () are often used to represent Buddhist temples on maps (se picture below), and it is commonly understood as a symbol for Buddhism. The symbol itself, however, is older than Buddhism, and it possesses profound meaning.
The manji represents the fluidity of the universe and the foundation of life. The opposites which organize our thoughts - heaven and earth, day and night, positive and negative, male and female, south and north, summer and winter, fire and water, and many others - stand in apparent opposition. Yet each maintains its own distinct nature while finding harmonious relations with its opposite. The shape of the manji reflects this. The perpendicular line symbolically connects heaven and earth, while the horizontal line unites lightness and darkness. The two combined to form a cross represent the universe in harmony beyond the limits of time and space, and from which comes the power that creates and nurtures all things. The trailing lines of the cross represent the wisdom that the universe and all things in it change constantly, never reaching a stage of permanence.
After extensive practice, one may awaken to the fact that one is a vital part of the flow and change of the universe, and discover deep value and significance in living. This provides one with an immovably peaceful state of mind known in Zen as satori. It comes through union with the foundation of the universe. When a person reaches satori, or enlightenment, the interrelations which manji represents can be seen as complete, and the manji becomes a circle.
The omote (front side) manji () represents infinite mercy, or the love in Dharma which permeates the universe and nurtures all things. The ura (back side) manji () represents intellect and strength. The Chinese are said to have derived their symbol for strength () from the ura manji (). Although omote manji and ura manji are customarily used side by side in Buddhism, the manji worn on Shorinjikempo dogi (uniform), in Japan and many foreign countries, is set as the omote manji. In many dojo it is also common to have a kakejiku (hanging scroll) with a calligraphy made by Kaiso with a manji followed by dharma written in sanskrit (se picture to the left).
The spirit of caring for others as well as oneself is shown by the original teachings of Buddha. This path can be followed by using the intellect and strength symbolized by the ura manji to develop oneself into a person who can be relied on, and who can serve humankind as an expression of the mercy and love represented by the omote manji.
The manji symbolizes the spirit of riki ai funi.
The harmony of opposites symbolized in the manji includes the harmony of intellect with mercy, and strength with love. This harmony lies at the heart of Kongo Zen's principle of riki ai funi, a principle which also gives guidance to us in how we are meant to practice and to use the techniques of Shorinji Kempo. Understanding the truths represented by the manji are vital to understanding the heart of Kongo Zen.
From ancient Sanskrit.
The manji was originally a Sanskrit symbol meaning "whirlwind", "good fortune", "foundation of life", and "everchanging universe". After the death of Buddha, it was engraved on stone footprints marking places where he was supposed to have stood and on these footprints one often find manji.
Additionally the manji can also be seen on statues of Buddha as on the picture below.
Statue of Buddha with a manji on the chest. © www.buddhistsupplies.com.
Its use in the West.
The manji was also used in the West as a symbol of good fortune. In its religious usage it referred to the four L's: Light, Life, Love, and Liberty.