i think wether you see it or not there are still many MANY people out there who identify themselves as being racist and fascist. they use the swastika as well as many other more esoteric visual and language cues to convey this fact to people.
if you make the choice to wear cloths or get tattoos that seem to convey this ideology then you will seen as holding or promoting these views, and will have to answer for it.
hopefully you will be lucky and only have to answer for it verbally...
it is pretty hard to justify wearing such a politically charged symbol of hatred even though technically you are free to do as you wish.
sorry of course to clarify there are cultural differences.
i am speaking about; the fascist nazi swastika that often has a number of other visual cues that differentiate it from the swastika seen in eastern culture.
Anyone who picks something so trivial over someone else's feelings is a jerk. Jerks deserve beatings because they are selfish. Selfishness is the root of all evil, on large scales entire civilizations can be ruined.
2nd, Chavs are a different matter. When a holocaust survivor sees a schwatchamaspellit, s/he remembers starving and fighting over food, dead loved ones that where stolen from him/her, the horrible images of people be shot and killed for trying to hide their jewelry. I bet you would see several in tears people in tears.
When you see a chav, you just go, "wow, that's ugly." and keep walking.
Do you want to make an old grandma cry? For . . . unpopular fashion? That is the epitimy of evil.
No, no, no. Again, putting ludicrous words into my mouth. I was demonstrating that the Nazis did not get into power by campaigning for racial genocide, a simple historical fact that is irrefutable. When Hitler campaigned for power in the 30s, he didn't say "Right, we're gonna gas all the Jews", as I pointed out, this happned much, much later, in 1941.
"What does this mean" you ask?
Well, it means nothing, it is entirely irrelevant to the issue of wearing swastikas, I was merely pointing out a huge inaccuracy in slip's historical knowledge, which has seemed to spur him into a rage.
Guys, you need to chill out.
It is my view that people should be able to wear whatever they want and have the right not to be abused or harassed for it. I see this as an extension of the human right to go unharassed about one's business. How in God's name does this in any way make me a Nazi apologetic? This thread has gone beyond absurd, thank you slipthejab.
But let's just add some things up. I think people should have the right to go unharassed regardless or what political party they ally themselves to (regardless of how offensive it is), or what shirts they wear. Yeah, if I saw a '9/11 rules' T shirt, I would find it tasteless and inappropriate for public wear, BUT I don't think the wearer deserves physical harm like some of you seem to think. So here I am, saying people shouldn't be harmed for piece of fabric they choose to wear, and I get abuse hurled, get called a Nazi, blah blah blah. Bear in mind it is not ME talking about people 'deserving beatings' etc. That's the price you have to pay for disliking violence? I'd have thought martial artists would know better.
Slip, I think the Nazis would be proud of your baseless accusations, slander and demonising straw-man tactics, don't you?
I hereby place you under citizens arrest for "Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that the person represents a group that the speaker is critical of" and letting your imagination run wild, lol.
Surely someone else agrees that violence is not the answer to seeing someone donning a swastika? What exactly is that going to do? Yeah, let's go round beating people up for wearing a swastika, and be as bad the SA. Nice one.
You know, I could act massively offended by Slip's accusation of me being some kind of Nazi, given that I lost a grandfather in WW2, and cite the TOS, but because I'm a laid-back kind of guy I'll let it go, because like I said, I can think of better things to worry about than being offended by what somebody else believes.
To be honest this whole thread is ludicrous now, it's been nothing more than a slanging match between Slip's ego and myself, there's a time and a place for rational analysis of history and it obviously isn't this thread.
unfortunately 99% people wearing swastikas in western society are fascists.. and are espousing a racist ideology. to ignore this is a mistake because then people get the idea it is accepted.
you can pretend it doesn't matter all you want but that does not make it true.
not to say that some of the rhetoric in this thread has not been over the top... =)
Nice one Knight Errant accuse an entire nationality of being casually racist. Oddly enough out of all the Japanese I've met I've never met any who have expressed the opinion that a bunch of "Gaijin dying" is of no concern. I think in this instance the casual racism would be coming from your direction.
It might also be worth noting that no-one except Maverick is actually suggesting that many Japanese go around wearing swastikas thinking they are cool (even the pictures at the start are from Hong Kong). And again in my experience pretty much every Japanese person I've met would be aware of the significance of such symbolism (and Im referring to Nazi specific symbols not just a swastika). Also I don't know where abouts in Japan maverick lived/visited but its certainly not something I noticed when I visited (random english words on shirts yes nazi symbolism nope) but I'll keep my eye out when I go back in September. Isn't the reason this was such a big deal because its out of the ordinary??? I really don't think everyone in Hong Kong and Japan are running around with Fascist slogans on their shirts thinking they are cool...
For an in-depth answer have a look here...
http://www.answers.com/topic/responses-of-germany-and-japan-to-world-war-ii-crimes
You don't come out and say directly the Nazi's aren't that bad but you do seem to be taking the position that people obviously don't know as much about the real history of the Nazi's as if they did they wouldn't demonise them. However, what you don't seem to recognise is that quite a few people probably know the same if not more about Nazi history as you and yet have come to a totally different conclusion... i.e. the Nazi's really where THAT bad and although racial genocide may not have been carried out every year their policies and the way they enforced them were always working along those lines just on a smaller scale.
Other people DO know that the Nazi party didn't just have one single policy yet they still find the suggestion that people should be able to wear Nazi symbols for fashion ridiculous.
yes and really equally as important, we need to keep in mind what the neo-nazis are PRESENTLY doing. to think that these kinds of politics stopped after WWII is a mistake.
It was few and far between, but more noticable is the stalls that sell all sorts of Nazi memorabillia, like the patches, officers caps, uniforms, badges, etc. Which indicated to me that they didn't really take it too seriously.
Whether this means they don't offend as easily, or are just totally ignorant of what the Nazis did (I find this hard to believe), is up for debate. But if a shop in a public market tried selling such items in the UK I doubt it'd stay open for long?
Mate I am aware of how horrific the things they did were, and I agree - they were THAT bad - but it's of no benefit to assume that from the word go their campaigns were based on genocide and such like, although as I said, this was basically an argument over semantics between slip and myself that turned into a slanging match over this irrelevant (to the swastika issue) piece of history.
I don't think we should demonise them because we have to accept that normal people did actually allow the Nazis to rise to power, and we let them get away with the crimes they did for so long. It would be easier to just call them 'evil' and de-humanise them and act like it could never happen again, not in a civilised country. But the fact is, back then, in the 30s, the Nazis DID come to power, and, at the time, many people genuinely supported them, because of reasons Bassai listed, such as the Depression, unemployment, anger at the Versailles treaty. We should look at historical events unbiasedly.
I've found that most people's knowledge of the Nazis tends to begin and end at the War and the Holocaust (and rightfully so, of course they are the most important events of the era), however having studied them as part of History quals I can understand why a German living in Germany in the 20s/30s might choose to vote for them, given the circumstances. This doesn't mean I think they were 'not that bad' or other rubbish, it certainly doesn't make me an apologetic either! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and the Germany of the 1930's did not have this benefit.
This is why I used the example of serial killers etc, calling them 'evil' is no good at all, it doesn't help anyone to understand their motivations and thus be better equipped to catch them in the future.
You might find my willingness to allow people to wear such symbols as strange or ridiculous and I respect that, but I do feel strongly about people's right to go about their lives unharassed by physical violence, even if they are wearing offensive clothing.
Its not your willingness that I find ridiculous as you may notice my signature is seemingly advocating a somewhat similiar approach as to what you suggest i.e. look after yourself and don't concern yourself with trying to sort out what everyone else wants to do. However agreeing with that sentiment I also don't expect everyone else to do what I want so while I may not be too bothered about Nazi-flags on shirts personally I don't expect that everyone else in the world should share a similiar feeling.
Your desire to protect people from physical abuse is admirable but there is an easier way than changing the attitudes of a few million people... just don't wear clothing with images of a regime which killed and tortured millions of people in various horrific ways. Can you imagine walking round Cambodia with Khmer Rouge symbols on your shirt? or even outside Cambodia can you imagine the reaction of someone who lived through Pol Pot's regime as they see a teenager walk by with a picture of Polpot or a few of his parties symbols strategically emblazened? Can you come up with any arguments as to why fashion with offensive images is something that we should feel passionately about defending?
Just remember that the swastika is like a thousand year old and means different things to different people. I wouldn't worry about it myself. Symbols don't mean anything.
I agree, and I would not wear something like that because generally I don't want to offend people or attract hassle off them when it's unnecessary. And while the design of some of the symbols is impressive, it's not impressive enough to warrant me wanting to wear them.
Not really, it isn't worth it is it? I don't feel passionate as such about people's right to wear offensive items, more of their right to be left alone regardless. I think 60 years on we should be able to put the past behind us and don't take the bait as it were. No point crying over spilt milk, yes it's pretty harsh I suppose but I try to live by this rule myself, as well as people minding their own business. Bellator had a point though, even I wouldn't try and tell some 90 year old veteran that it was none if his business what I wore.
The thing is though, this problem of wearing offensive political imagery is pretty small and confined to certain places, you get folk in the UK who wear Guevara T shirts, German Army shirts but these don't tend to offend people so it's not a problem. Given that the problem of genuinely offensive clothing such as the stuff advertised for sale in the shop in the thread is not widespread, I think it's better for people to ignore it. However if it was more widespread then perhaps then I would agree that it should be outright banned as it simply causes more trouble than it's worth.
this is ridiculous, go do a search on google for neo-nazi and see how many sites come up. this is NOT a problem that can be put behind us. this is a very real present day problem.
As it happens i too have studied that period of German history in college, i have an 'A' in advanced level history (dunno what that converts to in US but its the one below degree level), and the more i learnt about them the more i was disgusted. Along with the Russian communist party which i studied too.
Wild-pitch makes a good point too, this isn't a thing of the past, its still very much a problem in Europe.
*EDIT* FYI, heres an example. Between 6,000-7,000 neo nazis launched a protest on the 60th anniversary on the Dresden bombing.
Dresden was a city we (british) bombed in WWII which they have taken exception to. As usual in Nazi ideology they have very selective memories, e.g. that it was a major military industrial base and that they bombed us first. But thats a different argument...