SPLIT: Swastikas

[SofiaGirllikes2boys]

Sure there are lots of keyboard warriors who like to go on white-power forums and the like, and say this and that about how they think blacks or jews are inferior, or how the Zionist government is plotting to overthrow the world, but I suspect the vast majority of it is just talk, they like to amuse themselves talking to other bigots but probably don't do anything out of the ordinary in real life.

I think Neo Nazism is much more prevalent in the U.S. than it is in Europe, although I can only speak for England really. AFAIK it is practically non-existent in England? You're gonna get the odd nutter, but I've never heard of any organised groups doing anything.

To be honest I think you should worry about Bush more than Neo Nazis. For all intents and purposes Nazism is dead and buried.

 

[SunnyDiego]

Look at that link i just posted, i may have edited it in after you read my post.

As it happens we do have a very organised nazi-isque party, the British National Party (BNP) who are getting stronger by the year.

 

[Nav]

completly untrue. there are very organized groups out there who are taking real action in the streets. granted, not everybody taking part in the discussion is a true believer but there are enough to be worried about. the major problem we presently are experiencing is these groups are playing into fear of the immigrant culture and feelings of nationalism that are becoming more present in both europe and the North America.



there are some very strong nationalist groups in england don't fool yourself. thankfully there are also a number of good active anti-facist groups there as well.

 

[reckontheirlife]

some info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

very true.. there are many other nationalist parties in europe right now. in fact i would say that nationalist and racist policies are making greater inroads into the european political arena than in north america.

these parties are really just toning the more extreme rhetoric down to seem more appealing but their politics are pretty blatent. i think these kinds of politcs are destructive and we need to keep aware of them.

from the wikipedia article.

"When Tyndall was still chairman, the BNP's 1995 national rally was addressed by American neo-Nazi Dr. William Pierce.

Nick Griffin has appeared on the same platform as David Duke, former leader of the Ku Klux Klan and a former member of the Louisiana state legislature.

The openly violent neo-Nazi group Combat 18 was formed in 1992 (although not originally under this name), to act as stewards for BNP rallies, which were often physically assaulted by left-wing groups, such as Anti-Fascist Action. According to the BNP, all associations with Combat 18 were ended shortly after the latter were formed, John Tyndall telling BNP members that they could not be members of both organisations simultaneously. Searchlight magazine, Red Action and other commentators on both the left and right spectrums of the media have alleged that Combat 18 was the brainchild of the British secret service organisation MI5, being designed to discredit the BNP whilst simultaneously acting as a 'honey-trap' to attract the most violent neo-Nazis in Britain into a single organisation where they could be monitored. It is also believed that Combat 18 were used by MI5 to infiltrate Loyalist paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland. In 1998, the leader of Combat 18, Charlie Sargent, a Special Branch informant, was sentenced to life imprisonment for the 1997 murder of another member of the group. This effectively ended the organisation, although a small group of people still use the name to describe themselves."

 

[nml]

I've never seen a swastika used by Chinese. There is a budist symbol originaly from India that looks like the swastika and is often used in Chinese budism. It is basicaly a swastika drawn backwards and it actually predates the swastika by many years.

 

[boycot355]

The current governments complete incompetence with anything immigration related (its just been revealed a ridiculous amount of failed asylum seekers, i think half a million, are still in the UK), combined with anti-EU sentiment and now the terrorist bombings mean that the BNP is now stronger than ever.

I was under the impression Combat 18 was still very active.

 

[MissPrinciples]

For one thing, the Chinese "wan" is opposite the Nazi swastika and is usually oriented horizontally. Hitler took the symbol, turned it backwards and rotated 45 degrees to create the familiar symbol of Nazism and, nowadays, white supremacy. The two characters are easily distinguishable. Unfortunate as it is, that symbol has now become inextricably linked with hate, racism and genocide in the western mind. If I saw someone wearing it I wouldn't beat them up, but I would also avoid talking to them and would be at least mildly offended. I would probably be much more offended if I was Jewish or had a relative that had been killed in the war. You can't even argue that it represents some kind of heritage or of pride like the Confederate flag, since it was a symbol used exclusively by the Nazi party.

You might as well wear a t-shirt that says "I think Pol Pot had the right idea" or "send the niggers back to Africa." Some people might also think a t-shirt like that would be funny, but I don't think it's ever appopriate to make fun or fashion out of the suffering and deaths of millions. Therefore, I will assume that anyone wearing a Swastika shirt is either a white-supremacist or an iofftopicture person with no understanding or compassion for the suffering of others. Either way I will wan't nothing to do with them.

 

[Ilerya]

Well, you'd be hard pressed to find a British national (or many other European national) that didn't have at least one relative killed in the war.

Which is probably why the swastika wasn't such a big thing in Japan, as they weren't on the recieving end of it. Say something bad about something thats happened in their past and you'd get the same reaction we have to the swastika. You don't see them using Nagasaki or Hiroshimo in their ad campaigns.

 

[crazyorange]

Again it might be worth noting that the ad campaign featured at the start of this thread ran in HONG KONG which is in the PRC not Japan...

 

[sliq1983]

Err.. seems you don't stay too up on the real world.

I'm not sure where you gleaned your info on Neo Nazis in America as compared to Europe but it's severely lacking.

Italy has a huge problem with Neo Nazi's and Fascist's (there is no clear delineation between the two in Italy). Football games are always about to descend into Naziesque violence because of all the different factions of the Ultra's and whoever else.Often times they go down the road of glorifying Italy's past with Mussolini and his connections with Hitler.

And yes often like numbskulls everywhere they're spotted wearing the Nazi swastika. Yeah, real cool. Pfffttt.

Germany has recently had to get to grips with their numbers of Neo Nazis in their country even though so much of it is technically illegal..

Because you either don't know about it or don't keep up on it... doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The post by wild pitch has some very valid examples.

 

[ryandobbson]

You're on the late train. Go do some research on swastikas and then come back.

 

[jstar]

You're hilarious.

It doesn't matter that genocide wasn't the central pillar that brought the Nazi's into power.... it's the legacy they left at the expense of millions of innocent people. It is the policy that most people remember... so while you can argue academic points... in reality they have little bearing on the common perception of what the Nazis were all about.

If you can't or refuse to undestand that - then that's obviously where the problem is.

You came up with the idea that wearing a swastika and eagles was 'cool'.
And that people should be able to do it without getting a hard time from anyone. And that anyone who objects to people wearing Nazi swastikas are just whining and should mind their own business...

Like I said mate.. pimp on down to your pub wearing a t-shirt with a big fat Nazi swastika on it and see how you fare...

I guarantee you someone is going to mind your business.

LOL!

 

[duhmakk]

Okay, I am very tired and I am a slow reader so I have just taken an entire hour to read this thread, most of which I feel I have wasted. I feel it is necessary to preface my comments with a few points of fact. I am jewish and had several family members who died in the holocaust as well as some who fought for the United States during the war. I have also studied World War II and the National Sozialist Arbeitspartei at great length, with an open mind. I now have a few comments about this:

-When people say the Nazi swastika is a cool symbol, they are correct. Hitler studied history and leadership and found that people were swayed by symbols which were simple, yet powerful. He chose the swastika because it holds such power, and then "personalized" it so that it would represent his party and his vision for the German people.

-The Nazi swastika is a representation of Nazism, regardless of what you may think. It represents the core beliefs and values just as much as $ represents American dollars and % represents a percentage. Symbols have meanings behind them beyond looking cool. That's why they're called symbols.

-When you wear the Nazi swastika, you are affirming that you understand the significance of and choose to represent that symbol. Therefore, if you have been taught what Nazis are/were (which apparently these Chinese were not), you are obliged to recognize that many people see the symbol as insulting. When you wear it about your person, you are actively insulting people, no less than if you were wearing a shirt that expressed "I hate blacks and asians" or "All women should be confined to the kitchen." It is not a stretch to see why this might incite violence.

-It is negligent and shameful for a retailer to revive this content without properly educating the consumers. Yes, the symbols and regalia are flashy and cool (as was their intent), but they carry with them sentiments that evoke unpleasant feelings for a substantial population. It is unethical to sell things with such influence to uneducated consumers.

-Freedom of speech is not the freedom to antagonize.


That is all I can write for now. Thank you for reading this post.

 

[TheSecretGoldfish]

meh this arguing is silly.

swatstikas are fine if they are eastern buddhist or hindu or religios ones, or even symbolic

they are not fine when its recreated nazi gear like at some of these stores! lol. an exact flag is alot different then a buddha with swatstikas hehe

 

[Helloxoxo]

Yeah this thread did go down the road of silly.

But sometimes that's the way it goes... especially with those who have a chip on their shoulders from previous threads where steroids were recommended. lol.

That's why I asked this thread be seperated or binned at the mod's discretion from the thread it originally appeared in.

 

[BoomDizzle]

So you know many Neo Nazis then? I maintain they are too small in number to pose a significant threat to a country.

As for the BNP, they are not Nazis, they are the BNP, even if they have similiar ideas. They may have gained votes recently but they will never gain significant power, they are a shambles. Nick Griffin doesn't have the advantage of being able to give powerful speeches to milions of unemployed men in a country in the midst of a depression, for this reason and others I predict they will never dent Labour or the Tories.



It doesn't matter to this issue no, but you claimed it was, I corrected you, and you wouldn't have it, deciding to start insulting me instead. I already stated it has no relevance to the issue and doesn't mean wearing the symbol will not offend.



Ahh finally you admit that it was just an academic point. Thank you. Was there any need for pages of Nazi accusations over that?



Correction - I said the symbols look cool. Not that wearing them is cool. Massive difference.



I have no desire to do so, so I'll pass.

 

[JadenR]

did you read the info i sent you on wikipedia, do some research. the BNP in the late 80s early 90s straight up started as a blatantly racist group. the straight up had their own storm troopers. do you think they have actually changed their views or that they are just toning down the rhetoric to get votes?

the BNP have won elections, and it is irrelevant weather they will come to wider power or not the fact that they are a major political force that is getting votes at all is a serious problem.

"The modern BNP was originally founded in 1980 as the New National Front by John Tyndall (14/07/1934 - 18/07/2005), a former chairman of the National Front and a public follower of Nazi racial ideals. It changed its name to the British National Party in 1982. The current National Chairman, Nick Griffin, joined the BNP in 1995, and replaced Tyndall after a leadership election in 1999. Griffin was also a previous chairman of the National Front and spent time as an activist whilst reading law at Downing College, University of Cambridge."

 

[YT]

I don't disagree with you, of course they are racist, I'm just saying I don't think we need to worry about them coming to power like the Nazis did. Perhaps the sole benefit the Nazis gave us is the lesson not to let something like that happen again, even if England or America *was* in the same state as Germany was in the 30s. I think we face far greater threats these days.

The link was interesting, especially this bit

 

[BlMoreG]

WP, I didn't know about the difference. I knew they were slightly different, but the one you pointed out certainly has a "middle eastern" flavor to it rather than the 'hard' nazi style.

 

[DirtyMartini1]

agreed, you should not give them any more or any less attention than they deserve. BUT you do need to be aware that these people do exist and that they are pushing a definite agenda and modifying their language and platform to paint themselves as far less extreme than they are. you need to be aware of who they are and what they are about and never let them gain any ground.

too many people are uninformed or choose to forget. and this leads to problems.