Women in the Infantry

[Kurylovich]

There's a huge difference between being in the same building at French Creek than there is is living out in the field on LeJeune or 29....let alone actually being in the field in a combat zone such as the Upper Sangin Valley (one of the places used in the article). On a side note...are you saying females are also on the same floor in barracks now in addition to the same buildings? If so, I'm glad I don't have to do barracks duty anymore!

 

[Mikkie]

Deleted, dbl post.

 

[Anniesgran]

I don't quite know how the barracks situation works on the POG side of Lejeune other then that they share the same barracks. Whether it's separated by floors or odds/evens I couldn't tell you. I did do a 9 mile ruck from the infantry barracks to beyond French Creek during night on PT road and beyond and watched a female marine walk from one room into the next, which was occupied by a few males. She shut the door behind her, peeked out the window for a few seconds and then closed the curtains. Don't know if she lived right next to them or she was just "visiting" that entire side of the barracks, but they definitely room in the same building.

Introducing females into infantry barracks would be HORRIBLE for unit cohesion now that I think about it. I have so many stories I could tell. For those of you not familiar . . . . . . waking up at 5:30 in the morning and taking a few swigs of Jack Daniels is some people's normal morning routine. I've seen people urinate off balconies onto delivery people (on accident), jump off two and three story balconies for an "adrenaline rush," walk around naked, dress up and do things that would make you think arguing about homosexuality in the military is really an invalid debate . . . . and these are all NORMAL things. These activities are definitely not as common on the non-infantry side. It would definitely cause harm to unit cohesion if females introduction changed the way people had to live on the infantry side (which is already extremely sub standard and stressful). But then again . . . . is this legit male/female gender roles and natural behaviors, or what we accept and follow as social norms developed over many years.

As soon as I read she had been in Sangin building PB's I had respect for her. I remember having a discussion about a past MEU I had been on (unit I was in is scheduled for one on their next deployment) and people were trying to make it sound like it wasn't too bad. I told all the boots (not boots anymore being we had just come back from Afghanistan) that I would rather have done the initial push through Sangin then do a freaking MEU again. Definitely got some "wow" stares to that. MEUs suck worse then walking through an IED valley in my opinion. If you were in Sangin, much respect to you whether you're male or female.

 

[Lemonade]

I think his points are valid and would definitely bring a form of evidence for the problems integration would cause, but I also think that because of the way we have gender roles ingrained in us that the problems for unit cohesion (which is incredibly important) would be affected. Which brings me back to my opinion in my original post and something you touched on, that it is US as people, rather then just males and females individually and what they are capable of. I still think the ability to endure and the possibility of physical break down between males and females is something that should be looked into but that's not speaking to women's ability to serve in a combat situation. It's a very 'cost to the individual and institution' scenario she brings up which is very different from anything I've been exposed to with the debate.

If it were to be found that females are capable of doing a job, but are much more likely to be stopped in a much shorter time frame medically due to the physical nature of the job, would that be justification to not allow people of a certain sex to partake in that job? I think the answer lies with what tax payers are willing to pay out rather then an ethical/moral debate on male and female ability to be honest.

 

[ninja_master250]

Sorry for the lack of clarity with that response. I'll attempt to rectify.

- I feel the poster claiming Captain Petronio 'should be punched in the face' for blaming her issues on her gender is misguided. Petrionio was an engineer that regularly travelled one of the most dangerous roads in the world, Rte 611, to help provide a bare hill with a few trucks with some generators, tents, covered areas to go to the bathroom, and some limited security defenses. Furthermore, I believe she said she was involved with the FET...which do really important work in dangerous areas. Petriono has been more involved in combat than most male Marines. She isn't scarred from the experience. She just noticed a very distinct difference in how well she was able to hold up in that environment vice others around her. She makes several points about her being physically superior to most female Marines...and likely superior to some males as well. While actually being in that environment. And while she had more direct combat experience than most Marines...male or female...she certainly was not humping a ruck a heavy ruck on 3-5 day long patrols. Anyway, I just feel the bashing of Captain Petrionio's service, and honest opinion based on experience and factual data (albeit limited due to the infancy of the data pool), is unnecessarily antagonistic.

 

[ryanealexander12]

why am I double posting so much?!

 

[jalford12]

I will address this though. Firstly, you wont be thrust into combat and suddenly find yourself looking for cover next to a female. They're going to be in your unit from day one, through combat and downtime alike. During downtime you get the chance to build relationships and if that relationship happens to turn romantic - which absolutely CAN happen, do you really and honestly expect me to believe you're NOT going to go to additional lengths, take additional risks to save the woman you love? That puts others at risk. It's an issue. One I'm no where near capable of solving but it IS an issue.

Secondly, that wasn't atagonistic at all. Its a statement toward mindset which still exists today. I find nothing offensive about it as its simply fact. But if you want to find that offensive then you should also be offended when someone opens a door for a woman or offers to let them enter a building first... It's a fact, an inarguable fact, that some folk are still taught to be gentlemen in the old fashioned sense and that upbringing is hard to toss aside. Again, if thats offensive or antagonistic then either you need to make sure you understand what those words mean or the world has taken a HUGE turn for the worse since I last looked around.

Dont bother responding to me, as I wont address you on the topic again.

Cheers!

 

[QUEttt]

Sometimes its not what you say but how you say it. He just rubbed me wrong. Took his tone as, to use his word, antagonistic, and I just dont have time for that.

 

[bourbonixecom]

Man afuss, you're double post king in this thread.

 

[jorgeh]

C'mon man, relax a little. This thread definitely needs an understanding that VERY touchy issues on gender roles in the military and their capabilities, as well as how veterans are discussed amongst each other and with others who are not. I've already been ticked off by a couple posts but responded the best way I could, let the ToS guide you sir.

I am confident that there will be many "Lets agree to disagree" statements and discussions, but I don't like dismissal of somebody just because you don't agree. I've had plenty of people I hated in my short lifetime that I could have wanted to spit in their face one second, and then gone out to have a beer with them the next because life is just too short and not as complicated as we make it to be to treat people with contempt. Decisions that cost peoples lives and welfare aren't being made in this thread, so I can't justify getting truly hateful towards somebody for having an opinion. When it comes down to it it's just discussion, and I think it's doing pretty well to show different points of view as far as the thread is going so far.

 

[jrebelr]

I'm sorry for going off topic here but I need to seek clarification...are you saying guys are complaining that being on a MEU is worse than being in 3/5, 1/5, 2nd/3rd Recon, MSOT 8111 and 8112, and the batteries in Kajaki? 3/5 literally lost over a platoon of guys and had an entire company combat ineffective. I think that outweighs the annoyance of a MEU workup and fighting for space at the gym on ship.

Yes, there were a few women in Sangin...some FET, and some with Workhorse and the wrecker unit (don't remember their c/s). FET (no longer called that) are a great asset when properly trained and utilized.


And while I wanted to keep some of the 'in-house' intricacies of Marine infantry life......um, in-house....I will say similar considerations apply directly to living in a PB or Recon Coil. Here I'm talking no generators, no LOG Trains, limited airdrop supplies, running out of WAG bags, almost no shade shelter, close proximity living with no walls or privacy of any kind (you know what that leads to), etc...

 

[Crusader]

Oh, quick point. The much of the newly announced laws to 'relax restriction on women in combat' are actually playing catch up to the women that are actually in combat. Nothing to get excited over or ground breaking. Its already happening, now the rules have to catch up.

 

[TheMole]

I can only speak to experiences of being in the Marine Corps...with limited time working with an Army National Guard Unit. How the Marine Corps infantry sometimes operates would make it really difficult and impractical for gender integration...in my opinion, based on my experiences. A lot of the women currently serving in combat in the Marine Corps stay out in the field for a few days at a time...for the time of their mission...then return to a FOB or main base. I think what Cpt Potronio is saying is sustained exposure at a PB or hill is taxing on a women's physiology...based on her experiences at having very limited time exposed at such a location and being in a physical condition superior to the majority of women in the Marine Corps.

Are you an advocate of women in the infantry, or integrated infantry units? What I mean is, do you think having all-female and all-male platoons in the infantry would be feasible? I'm not advocating that, but am curious if people think thats a solution to issues that come up with living in an environment with literally no privacy.

 

[snowboardingrocks]

I'm saying I'm complaining about a MEU and I would very much rather be in the initial push through Sangin. If we're talking about the safety of everybody and coming back home, of course I would choose a MEU. My statement about my personal preference does sound potentially ignorant and possibly a bit disrespectful but I'm being honest. I joined the military to be engaged with those environments, not be sent on a ship to float around and do nothing for 7 months. Take that for what you will but dangerous situations haven't ever rattled me very much at all. I look at something like that and think "man, I wish I could have contributed" rather then "man, that sucks, glad I wasn't a part of that."

As far as the in-house stuff goes . . . . meh. You can't go too in house on MAP anyways, describing the normal stuff that goes on would be a huge violation of ToS : P.

 

[Neex]

With homosexual relationship being allowed in the military this is an issue that effects all-male infantry units as well. I'm not sure if that adds weight to, or argues against, what you were getting at in the above quoted text...but is does make for an interesting twist on things.

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about tone in a text document. Its my writing style, and not meant to be anything other than analytical, poignant, and directly stated. I apologize if I seem abrasive. Please realize I don't have strong feelings about this issue. I have opinions based on experiences, and I am supplying them to add viewpoints to this discussion for the sake of its progression. I will definitely not lose sleep if women integrate into infantry platoons...I just think its impractical and, since women are already serving in combat, the 'rights' argument outdated.

If your comment I took to be antagonistic and dismissive were not intended to be of that nature...I apologize for taking it out of context. Again, hard to gauge tone in text...maybe we should all use those jumpy yellow face guys more (though, honestly I am not sure that I completely understand the intent behind those from time to time).

 

[Ladeebugg33]

Gotcha about the MEU thing. I thought you were saying either you, or your guys, were saying the MEU had it worse than us in Sangin. I get the monotony of a MEU, but dang...that would not have been a cool thing to say. But I totally get wanting to be where stuff is happening vice wasting away on ship. I did an MOS lat-move out of the engineering field in 2006 for the same reason, and am very glad I did.

 

[Gowsi]

What?! Oh yeah man, those IEDs were nothing compared to somebody farting in the birthing. I mean heck man, we were all so close together if you farted on one end . . . . everyone smelled it. Horrible. I have disability for it right now because of my loss of smell. IEDs are nothing compared to the foul smell of another mans innards.

 

[DinoE]

What precipitated a lot of this discussion is the Marine Corps' Infantry Officer Course (IOC) opening up to women. This will supposedly serve as the testing ground for gender integration. Okay, I know a lot of responses on this will be rolling eyes because its IOC....but really IOC is a bit of an butt-kicker. I believe the intent is to not alter physical requirements in IOC for female candidates (which should start in September). My concern with this as a testing ground is its such a small test-sample. Officers represent the minority in the infantry, and it makes me wonder if integration is limited to officers only. The best way to get the largest and most accurate test sample is to open up ITB at SOI to women, then put them in division and start a workup and deploy to see what problems come up and if they can be addressed.

My MOS recently opened up to females...which I was a supporter of, and we are an MOS whose primary goal is direct support of combat units. This integration came with caveats of what missions and units our females can attach to...I wonder if women in infantry units, if integrated, would have similar limitations...like maybe only working from FOBs vice PBs, or something like that.

 

[CarmelloBar]

I'm so glad when I go on float I don't have to stay on ship much!

I hope you like that crap because it seems like we are returning to the pre-9/11 days, when I first joined, where a float was the most 'legit' thing a Marine could hope for, lol.

 

[V2K1]

Doesn't matter for me. My 4 was up in March of this year! The Corps is starting to turn into Peace Time mode when I was in the process of getting out. That type of life is NOT the life for me.