Warriors of the Clouds
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youcancallmeashley
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- Mar 21, 2008
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I'm still stuck on worms and mud. "Oh, gee, it's a bit of trash buried in the ground. It must be a letter from God, because that's how God sends us messages -- he buries them in the ground for many hundreds of years."
Ppfffttt. Not.
Ppfffttt. Not.
justmekk37
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- Apr 7, 2008
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the FLorida bog bodies were discovered by accident while draining the Windover bogs in central Florida. Archeologist Glen Doren was called to examine them. He examined the skulls and concluded from the worn down teeth that they were very old. The skeletons had been well perserved in the neutral, non acidic peat which sealed out bacteria and fungi preventing decay, and no pottery or ceramic materials were present in the bog, which he says gave him a hint that this could be the oldest graveyard ever discovered in Florida, since ceramic material goes back 4000 years. He thought these skeletons could be as old as King Tut but to be be sure he sent bone samples to be radio carbon dated. They turned out to be more thn 7000 years old. Glen was right, it was the oldest discovery in state history. But there was more.
Further digging unearthed hundreds more skeletal reamins as well as bone and antler tools and carved wooden objects and hand woven fibers, the oldest fabrics ever discovered in America. Dr James Adovasio was asked to examine the fibers. He confirmed they were ancient twine textiles.
Dr Joe Lorenz later performed DNA testing on the Windover remains, searching for haplogroups common in Native Americans. He didn't find them. instead, all of the DNA sequences appeared to be European. Adding to the evidence of an early European migration.
Further digging unearthed hundreds more skeletal reamins as well as bone and antler tools and carved wooden objects and hand woven fibers, the oldest fabrics ever discovered in America. Dr James Adovasio was asked to examine the fibers. He confirmed they were ancient twine textiles.
Dr Joe Lorenz later performed DNA testing on the Windover remains, searching for haplogroups common in Native Americans. He didn't find them. instead, all of the DNA sequences appeared to be European. Adding to the evidence of an early European migration.
ProudBerbician
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Kennewick Man was discovered by accident by waders in the Colombia River, near Kennewick Washington. Forensic Anthropologist Jim Chatters examined the skull and due to its caucasoid characterisitcs concluded it to be an early 19th century European settler. Later he found he had been wrong.
After police called off the crimianl investigation, Chatters collected the rest of the bones. Something was lodged in the pelvic bone, something x rays couldn't detect which meant it wasn't metal. A CAT scan showed it to be a stone age spearpoint. Chatters then sent a bone sample for radio carbon dating. It turned out to be more than 9000 years old! it was mind boggling. Kennewick Man was the oldest American ever found. The bones were seized by the US government before further testing could be done.They seized it as part of the native AMerican Repatriation Act. Eight Anthroplolgists sued the government over it, saying no tribe can trace their ancestry to Kennewick Man. Why? Because DNA testing shows Kennewick Man is not genetcally related to any tribe in the Americas.
After police called off the crimianl investigation, Chatters collected the rest of the bones. Something was lodged in the pelvic bone, something x rays couldn't detect which meant it wasn't metal. A CAT scan showed it to be a stone age spearpoint. Chatters then sent a bone sample for radio carbon dating. It turned out to be more than 9000 years old! it was mind boggling. Kennewick Man was the oldest American ever found. The bones were seized by the US government before further testing could be done.They seized it as part of the native AMerican Repatriation Act. Eight Anthroplolgists sued the government over it, saying no tribe can trace their ancestry to Kennewick Man. Why? Because DNA testing shows Kennewick Man is not genetcally related to any tribe in the Americas.
red207pilot
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- Apr 8, 2008
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misread. disregard.
sithis1426
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For most of the Windover bog portion, you were correct. However, a little research of my own shows this is generally considered a huge error on Lorenz's part.
Here's a study from 2011 that explains why: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21614/full
The characterization of one Windover sample as a member of haplogroup X is an interpretation by Smith et al. (1999) of one of eight HVS1 sequences reported by Hauswirth (1994). However, since none of the remaining seven sequences reported by Hauswirth exhibited CR sequences characteristic of any other Asian-derived haplogroup and might therefore reflect either contamination or sequencing errors, the assignment of one Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups of Paleoamericans in North America 247of those sequences to Haplogroup X was probably in error. Because haplogroup X is found in Europe at a frequency of about 3 percent, it is possible that contaminant DNA in the Windover sample was the source of this member of haplogroup X, which has otherwise not been reported from populations of southeastern North America (Malhi et al. 2001; Weiss and Smith 2003). Likewise, the characteristic CR mutations at np 16223 and np 16278 found in haplogroup X are also found without the associated restriction markers for haplogroup X. Thus, assessment of haplogroup X without restriction analysis is problematic.
Basically they attribute the mistake of assigning the Windover bog people as a haplogroup X to human error, through either cross-contamination or error. So not really solid evidence supporting your theory.
Here's a study from 2011 that explains why: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21614/full
The characterization of one Windover sample as a member of haplogroup X is an interpretation by Smith et al. (1999) of one of eight HVS1 sequences reported by Hauswirth (1994). However, since none of the remaining seven sequences reported by Hauswirth exhibited CR sequences characteristic of any other Asian-derived haplogroup and might therefore reflect either contamination or sequencing errors, the assignment of one Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups of Paleoamericans in North America 247of those sequences to Haplogroup X was probably in error. Because haplogroup X is found in Europe at a frequency of about 3 percent, it is possible that contaminant DNA in the Windover sample was the source of this member of haplogroup X, which has otherwise not been reported from populations of southeastern North America (Malhi et al. 2001; Weiss and Smith 2003). Likewise, the characteristic CR mutations at np 16223 and np 16278 found in haplogroup X are also found without the associated restriction markers for haplogroup X. Thus, assessment of haplogroup X without restriction analysis is problematic.
Basically they attribute the mistake of assigning the Windover bog people as a haplogroup X to human error, through either cross-contamination or error. So not really solid evidence supporting your theory.
snake_shah2003
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- Mar 16, 2008
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Further to Kuma's point is the underlying problem when people don't know how to actually read or follow up on a scientific study or paper. It happens all the time in the sports science world and forums... people read a single study and the very first interpretation of that data without considering further reviews of that data or the funding background of the study or... the design of the study.
Basically people in general look to papers and studies to cherry pick their support with very little understanding of the larger process involved and thus a very poor perspective on how the process of scientific study and research is carried out.
Basically people in general look to papers and studies to cherry pick their support with very little understanding of the larger process involved and thus a very poor perspective on how the process of scientific study and research is carried out.
AlexisInfectious®
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Actually Kennewick Man was released to scientists in 2004 for them to study. It pays to do some follow up when presenting a scientific find or study as evidence as often what is right one day is debunked/wrong the next. Sometimes even better evidence comes out. Kennewick Man is not considered a caucasoid so that doesn't really support your argument either.
NO BALANCE TRAINING WORKS!
OVERWEIGHT PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO WEIGHTED SQUATS ON A BOSU BALL!
I READ A STUDY ON ELITE ATHLETE'S WHO DECREASED THEIR BODY FAT PERCENTAGE BY 2% AND INCREASED THEIR STRENGTH BY 3% SO IT MUST WORK AND EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT!
this is the sport science equivalent of the evidence and reasoning vampyregirl has provided on this thread in regards to her argument.
OVERWEIGHT PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO WEIGHTED SQUATS ON A BOSU BALL!
I READ A STUDY ON ELITE ATHLETE'S WHO DECREASED THEIR BODY FAT PERCENTAGE BY 2% AND INCREASED THEIR STRENGTH BY 3% SO IT MUST WORK AND EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT!
this is the sport science equivalent of the evidence and reasoning vampyregirl has provided on this thread in regards to her argument.
Can someone explain how the fact that some caucasion, or caucasion looking mummies were discovered has to do with a religion start by a blatant fraud, who was known as and I quote from a Historical source " a fraud, huxter and treasure hunter" who claims he read golden tablets that only some people could see by using a magic rock at the bottom of hat, and used this platform to spout racist , sexist and downright riduculas science fiction?
Also the bits of the book of mormon that match up with the dead sea scrolls are the same bits of that match up with judaism and christianity, these things were passed down to people. proves nothing.
Also the bits of the book of mormon that match up with the dead sea scrolls are the same bits of that match up with judaism and christianity, these things were passed down to people. proves nothing.
So far as I am aware there is no landmass in the atlantic which prevents passage from north to south (atlantis isn't real, just on the off chance I need to remind you). However passing through the southern ocean is considered a hazardous passage at the very best of times, and it's highly unlikely that it could have been performed with primitive technology. By far the safest route would have been out of the med and across.
Although this whole thread seems pretty absurd really.
If Monty Python hadn't come along, we'd have to credit you with the invention of surrealist humour.
Just like we'd have to credit the monkeys if they ever wrote Hamlet.
Although this whole thread seems pretty absurd really.
If Monty Python hadn't come along, we'd have to credit you with the invention of surrealist humour.
Just like we'd have to credit the monkeys if they ever wrote Hamlet.
softballcatch124
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- Mar 31, 2008
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Another reason your argument doesn't impress me is that there are those who still insist the cocaine mummies are the result of contamination despite the fact that cocaine was found in the hair roots and inside the stomach. Some people simply refuse to accept what they think coudln't be true.
GhostRider
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- Mar 21, 2008
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Which samples are you referring to?
According to the studies they did in '04 and '05 he most closely resembles Ainu.
It used to be a good theory but then the Monte Verde site came along and threw a monkey wrench in that. I tend to put more stake in the coastal migration hypothesis but I'm just a casual reader and don't really follow too often. That one claims they came from Asia by the way and not Africa.
According to the studies they did in '04 and '05 he most closely resembles Ainu.
It used to be a good theory but then the Monte Verde site came along and threw a monkey wrench in that. I tend to put more stake in the coastal migration hypothesis but I'm just a casual reader and don't really follow too often. That one claims they came from Asia by the way and not Africa.
KeeganYiHangS
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A) You cannot use people not believing in one thing to discredit belief in something else - each needs to stand on it's own merits
B) The cocaine mummies have many explanation beyond cross-cultural contact - and it is significant that tests replicating the original "findings" turned up absolutely zilch. This means either Balabanova and her associates are misinterpreting their results or that the samples of mummies tested by them have been mysteriously exposed to cocaine.
Anomalies are sometimes just that
B) The cocaine mummies have many explanation beyond cross-cultural contact - and it is significant that tests replicating the original "findings" turned up absolutely zilch. This means either Balabanova and her associates are misinterpreting their results or that the samples of mummies tested by them have been mysteriously exposed to cocaine.
Anomalies are sometimes just that