Hypocrisy of modern-day Europe and Freedom of Speech

[EM1]

Slipthejab, in the UK you do learn about the bad things that the British did when they went around conquering various countries. The British used excuses like spreading liberalism and Christianity for why they generally avoided (for a long time) having to fight enemies that had guns and instead picking on militarily inferior countries. Every nation state has blood on its hands IMO and Britain is no exception. This is something I was taught in history ever since junior school and this open-minded attitude is something I really value about the British education system.

On the main subject of the criminality holocaust denial, I appreciate the offence that must be felt when you hear historians denying the atrocity that your ancestors endured less than a century ago. But on the other hand, while you would be right to point out that it's easy to be objective when you didn't have to endure the horror, the fact is that an objective viewpoint is what we need here. Many people pay lip service to freedom of speech but demand the criminalisation of controversial viewpoints and you simply cannot have it both ways.

Furthermore, if your objective is the defeat of nazism then the outright criminalisation of apparently sympathetic viewpoints is not going to do it. It makes the "guilty" parties look like martyrs, it makes it look like you're afraid of the truth, and it rightly makes you look like a hypocrite, condemning nazism only to combat it with one of its main tools i.e. the suppression of free speech. The way to defeat nazism is to expose it, allow them to state their views only to be ridiculed in debate.

I also agree with previous posters who've pointed out that merely having suspected nazi links does not invalidate all of one's evidence by default. Ad hominem arguments are very poor excuses to avoid having to argue the merits.

 

[IloveNickJonasttt]

Which is EXACTLY why I didn't mention Leuchter and his work! However, the points which I DID make were from sources which are, according to most Holocaustians, beyond reproach. Few people deny the credibilty of the Red Cross, for one thing. The rest I'm sure you can figure out for yourself.



As I said above, none of the points I made were based on Leuchter's work. NOT ONE. But for you to question MY sources while simultaneously quoting Wikipedia - an online dictionary which just about ANYONE can tamper with.... hahahahaha!



As I said, it is acknowledged by both the Simon Wiesenthal Centre AND the Vad Yashem Institute that this was NOT the case. Therefore, even if you and I waste time arguing logistics, the fact remains that these lampshades and bars of soap were fabricated lies. Therefore I am not wrong in stating that, while much of the Holocaust may be true, many lies were also concocted.



Did it? I won't outright deny that, but could you be as kind to provide sources for YOUR arguments. By the way "survivor testimonies" alone won't cut it, as there are unfortunately some women who lie about rape (which is, to all intents and purposes a terrible crime).




Emotional issues? Just HOW do you base that assumption? The "personal hatred" remark was not aimed at you specifically, but at those in this thread who are ignoring the key points and focussing purely on discrediting ME, as opposed to giving any careful consideration to the arguments on lack of free speech, etc. etc. As for your "counselling" jibe, that is a pathetic cheap shot and you know it.



Well, I'm coming back at you now, am I not?



British purity? Again, can you give any basis for that remark? As I CLEARLY stated earlier, I am not a member of any party, BNP or otherwise. I simply accepted an invite to join the Myspace group (and if you check, you'll see I didn't even post a single word on that group's board ).

I care little for racial purity, but am only concerned with preservation of my heritage. I feel that, rightly or wrongly, mass immigration, neo-Communism and our membership of the EU have had a severely detrimental effect on that.

I can't and won't speak for any other Nationalist, but I won't allow you to take my words out of context and bracket me with people I share no affinity with whatsoever. So I challenge you, Slipthejab, right here and now, to either put up or shut up. If you want to discredit my political views and/or personal background, then start a new topic and I will be right in there. Otherwise, let's keep this thread on-topic. Thank you.



Another childish insult, yet STILL no attempt to further this discussion. If all you can do is discredit me, based on me holding viewpoints which you find objectionable, then why are you even posting in this thread. The fact that you be-little me with your "big girl's blouse" insults suggests that YOU are the one who has "emotional issues", or are indeed compensating for something....

 

[bahbah]

The fact that there was Jewish emigration to escape the war is hardly suprising and the fact that some hollywood celebrities and rockstars are descended from such people bears no relevance to your argument. We're off to a good start.

Oh and...
"The claims often made by Holocaust deniers about emigration of Jews after the war are preposterous. For instance, there were 370,000 Jews in Palestine in 1937, and 600,000 in 1948."
http://www.remember.org/History.root.rev.html
"This is ridiculous. It would imply that about 5 million missing Jews have emigrated to these countries after WW2. This is not supported by reality, not by a long shot. Most Jews in these countries came before WW2. In Palestine, for instance, there were 370,000 Jews in 1936, and 590,000 in 1947. There were 5.54 million Jews in America at 1939, and about 6 million today. There are about 6 million missing European Jews, and they are not accounted for -- except by the German camps."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar16.html

Not to mention that the total number of immigrants recorded in the Israeli population records were:

1948 ########### 101,828
1949 ######################## 239,954
1950 ################## 170,563
1951 ################## 175,279
1952 ### 24,610
1953 ## 11,575

Whatever way you look at the figures it doesn't show "millions" of Jews suddenly appearing from nowhere. In fact the population of Israel at its inception seems to have been just around 1.1 million.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/demtoc.html


A ridiculous argument even by the Nazis own estimate the number was around 11 million.

Extracts from the minutes of the Wannsee conference, January 20 1942, regarding the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953., Vol. XIII, p. 210]

II. At the beginning of the meeting the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, SS Lieutenant General Heydrich, reported his appointment by the Reich Marshal [Goering] to service as Commissioner for the preparation of the Final Solution of the European Jewish Problem....

In the course of this final solution of the European Jewish Problem, approximately 11 million Jews are involved. They are distributed among individual countries as follows:

A. Original Reich Territory [Altreich] 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
Government General [Nazi occupied Poland] 2,284,000
The Netherlands 160,800
Rumania, including Bessarabia 342,000
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
White Russia, excluding Bialystok 446,484
[Many countries deleted for brevity]
TOTAL over 11,000,000

Also Im curious about the 3.2 million figure though it may be feasible. Could you provide the source for this figure please.


The way you have worded this it suggests that the common view of 'Holocaustians' (I thought you didn't deny it occured) is that both these allegations were considered true and they had to grudgingly admit that the evidence was false after the Nuremberg Trial...

This is WRONG (faints in SHOCK). And instead of going to the bother of reciting two 6 + 4 page explanations why go and have a read yourself...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/soap-01.html (SOAP)
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/clay-koch-01.html


This point relies on the assumption that the figure on the plaque at the Auschwitz State Museum was a widely accepted figure used by historians to calculate the total death toll of the holocaust. It wasn't. In a survey of 19 historical works which majoritively place the number between 1.1-2.5 million only 2 put it at 4 million and 1 of those was published in 1945. Lookey... http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-2-01.html

The reasons for the differing numbers are based on different methodologies "Some quoted Koofftopicndant Hِss's testimony (2.5 million) and others attempted to piece together how many people arrived at Auschwitz, minus any survivors, while still others used available pre- and post war census data. In fact, to find many sources that do list four million dead, one has to find books published behind the iron curtain... Other authors derided the Tribunal's four million figure as an absurd example of Soviet propaganda". All this would seem to highlight that A) people are not labelled anti-semites for suggesting lower numbers were killed, B) the 4 million figure was challenged much earlier by mainstream historians and was taken account of and C) subsequently the decrease in this number does not relate to the overall number in most historical books.

That's as far as I'm willing to go tonight. However, it's fair to say that practically every one of your points is refuted in the handy online response to the 'IHR/Zundels 66 Q&A about the Holocaust' which can be found here http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

I have to say having now done a little bit of research that the similarity between holocaust denial arguments and creationist arguments is incredibly apparent (and quite shocking to me). I can also see why you were reluctant to provide your sources as its clear they must have been simply lifted from sources such as the IHR. Anyway, I'm definitely done for today... I'll hit a few more tomorrow.

 

[slb20062003]

@Slipthejab:

Just for you, here is the soap theory debunked, straight from the horse's mouth, as well as the Auschwitz statistics which were released by Gorbachev (bear in mind these figures were taken from Nazi records, which the Red Army captured on liberation of the camp):

1. In 1990, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski.

2. After an intensive Revisionist campaign directed to Mr. Gorbachev, the Soviets finally released the remaining "Death Books of Auschwitz", which they had captured in 1945.

Surprise! Guess what? The so-called "four million", revised to "1.5 million," have shrunk to 74,000 proven deaths! All meticulously recorded - name, date, nationality, religion, time, reason and cause of death!

German researcher Tjudar Rudolf, who is fluent in German, English, French, Yiddish and Polish and understands most slavic names and languages, has painstakingly gone over all these Soviet/Auschwitz death register books and totaled the number of Jewish deaths according to name and religion - even allowing for slavicized names.

The end result? Slightly over 30,000 Jewish dead in Auschwitz.

So the bottom line is that whatever side you are on, whoever you believe, there has NEVER been ONE SINGLE Nazi document found which supports the 6 million figure, nor support for (or sanctioning of), an extermination programme. So until I see otherwise, I believe that the Holocaust, while being an awful consequence of war, is a propaganda tool which has been exploited by International Zionism.

 

[skgymnast28]

Your position is laughable lordazazel even when people address your points as you ask you refuse to acknowledge the spurious nature of the claims which you are simply parroting from holocaust denial websites:

Your post above for example is lifted almost word for word from
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/english1018.html
and
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/law.001.html

Consider for instance that my above post clearly explains that the 6 million figure was never generally accepted by historians as can be seen in the list of books provided above. And that there is an IN-DEPTH refutation of the SOAP argument... I even provided you the link!

Oh and in relation to your new parroted argument:


"This is because those lists refer only to those who where assigned serial numbers. The majority of people transferred to the camp were classified as "unfit for work" and gassed immediately. This fact is noted, for instance, in a report written by top SS officer Franke-Gricksch to Himmler (Get pub/camps/auschwitz/ gricksch.rpt; & ~/auschwitz.faq1, which discusses the registration process). These people were not registered anywhere, and no one recorded their names. (Testimony of Polish prisoner Aloiz Oskar Kleta, Shelly, p. 284; Fertig, 12; Fleming, 174. Also, see testimony of Henryk Tauber, Pressac, page 488, as to how the SS routinely burned documents regarding the number of victims. "

For a point by point refutation of Leuchter's work which by the way is what the page that your quoting from is discussing- look here:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/


Really? Take a look here then... http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

Also I have to say it didn't take long till we got to international Zionist conspiracies did it.

 

[MrModest]

I suggest you never express that view in one of the countries where Holocaust Denial is banned, because that statement there comes pretty close to it.

 

[yu3se6]

The amusing side of this is that lordazazel still mantains he does not DENY the holocaust occured despite DENYING that concentration camps gassed Jews, DENYING that the Nazis had a policy of extermination and DENYING that the number of those dead is anything like what respectable historians have argued for. Seems to me if he is right we need a new definition for the holocaust something along the lines of 'the unsystematic incidental death of a significant but not too high amount of Jews during World War 2 which did not occur in concentration camps and which Hitler had no knowledge of'. Sounds a bit like nonsense to me.

You should also note lordazazel if you bother to read non-revisionist websites that arguing against the 6 million figure is not really an issue in mainstream history. It's not a sacred cow... if you went to the bother of looking into the issue you would see that plenty of mainstream historians have produced a different figure without being labelled neo-nazis though none seem to come anywhere near to what revisionist 'historians' claim. What is the figure that your arguing for by the way? So far you've just been parroting of how ludicrous the 6 million figure is so I'm curious what you believe an accurate figure is after your 'in depth' research through discredited majoritively neo-nazi historians has lead you to?

 

[BondaJamesBond]

So it seems that we are back to the start. Explain this to me, if you will: Why is it that the Holocaust denial laws which are in place (the laws which prompted me to start this topic in the first place) make the refutation of the 6 million figure illegal?

If, as you say, it was never seriously accepted by historians, then WHY has it become so embedded in Holocaust folklore, that publicly questioning it in 10 countries is an act punishable by jail?



No, but it's never far away from such a debate, is it? Even more interesting how NOT ONE of you has addressed my question of why Germany still pays reparations to Israel 62 years later, yet Russia and it's former Soviet satellite states have not received ONE PENNY of compensation from Israel, for the decades of Jewish Communist oppression (which included millions of deaths, including the Concentration Camps - Gulags). Funny that....

 

[albion644]

Interesting, these are 'Claims of Holocaust Deniers' taken from Wikipedia, that I believe Azazel has been guilty of making himself.

They claim that Nazis did not use cremation ovens to dispose of millions of extermination victims. They argue that the amount of energy required to fire the ovens far exceeded what the energy-strapped nation could spare in wartime. They maintain that the cremation ovens that existed would have been too small for this purpose and were actually installed for the hygienic removal of corpses. They argue that death from natural causes and disease epidemics could reasonably be expected in a high-density work camp.

They claim that the figure of 5-6 million Jewish deaths is an exaggeration, because this would mean that virtually all of the Jews in Nazi occupied territories were exterminated; instead, they claim that many Jews actually emigrated or escaped to the Soviet Union, Britain, Palestine and the United States.

They claim that the Holocaust pales in comparison to the number of dissidents and Christians killed in Soviet gulags (which crimes they usually attribute to Jews) and to the number of non-Jews killed by Nazis during World War II.This would tally with his "more deaths under communism than nazism" claim

They claim that there was no specific order by Adolf Hitler or other top Nazi officials to exterminate the Jews.



Its only a matter of time before he racks up a few more of them.

 

[dasds]

They don't... if they did several mainstream historians and committees would be in trouble because them seem to have arrived at a figure less than 6 million.


The 6 million figure is widely accepted by historians to be accurate or at least to be between 5-6 million. I never said this figure was not seriously accepted... I said that the plaque at Auschwitz stating 4 million was not accepted and was not relevant to how historians or research groups arrived at their figures.


Refuting your parroted points takes time... good things come to those who wait. Anyway if it makes you feel better... Im not arguing that Israel is a wonderful nation of fuzzy little guys and gals who just want to live in peace and have never done anything wrong. If Israel refuses to pay for atrocities it's commited then that's certainly a bad thing that it should be criticised for- Im not defending Israels foreign policy. Regardless of whatever Israel does or does not do though it doesn't bear much relevance on what occured in WW2.

From what I can find out though Germany seems to have stopped paying reparations directly to Israel in 1966. If you mean paying to individuals who can display evidence that the German government took their families wealth... well I dunno I can kind of see were they are coming from but of course there should be limits. I guess this is probably why I imagine they have a commision and so on to decide on such matters.

 

[CourtneyD]

and in relation to there being no Nazi Documentation...


Nazi documentation


The Nazis themselves documented many of their crimes. For example, the Hِfle Telegram sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Hِfle on January 11, 1943 to SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin listed 1,274,166 Jews killed in the four camps of Aktion Reinhard during 1942 alone, while the Korherr Report compiled by an SS statistician, gave a conservative total of 2,454,000 Jews deported to extermination camps or killed by the Einsatzgruppen. The complete status reports of the Einsatzgruppen death squads were found in the archives of the Gestapo when it was searched by the U.S. Army, and the accuracy attested to by the former Einsatzgruppen members who testified during war crime trials and at other times. These reports alone list an additional 1,500,000 or so murders during mass shootings, the vast majority of these victims were Jews. Further, surviving Nazi documentation spells out their plans to murder the Jews of Europe (see the Wannsee Conference), recorded the trains arriving at various death camps, and included photographs and films of many atrocities.

 

[Meliah]

....and of course Wikipedia (the online dictionary that almost ANYONE can interfere with) is SUCH a reputable source, isn't it?

 

[McUnited]

Wikipedia is a perfectly legitimate source for this kind of information.

 

[ShelbyE]

LOL... lordazazel I don't know what your complaining about you are directly parroting holocaust deniers arguments straight off their websites! So of course you are repeating the standard holocaust denial arguments... I suspected this was the case from the very beginning which is why I asked you to mention the source for your 14 points which you never bothered to do (again hardly SHOCKING when your quoting from Zundels homepage) and lo and behold you are.

It's like someone arguing that they aren't a creationist then listing and arguing 14 points against evolution promoting creationism they got of a creationist website and trying to maintain they aren't advocating creationism!

I will get through your whole list if you like but for your own benefit I would suggest reading the refutation of the '66 Q & A's about the Holocaust' on the other page. If your really a fellow who simply is interested in what the evidence points to then go look at the evidence accepted by credible historians instead of neo-Nazis!

 

[brookesmygirl]

Wiki dictionary lists tangent as:

A topic nearly unrelated to the main topic, but having a point in common with it.

Yup I would say a tangent is pretty much going off topic.

I dont for a second deny that the USA is heavily involved in Israel. Stop being so patronizing my friend.

The TOPIC - to which were meant to adhere to is holocaust denial. The topic line is "The hypocrisy of modern day EUROPE (big clue - Israel isnt Europe) and freedom of speech.

if you want to discuss Israel USA relationship then you can do that in another thread quite easily.



While I dont disagree with that point, NEITHER of them countries are Euopean. Put that debate in another topic where its more pertinant and im sure we can all have a great debate there.

 

[hannah_brodbeck]

We don't need to refute the so-called 'research' of charlatans like David Irving, because it's already been done.

Er, no - no-one has said anything of the sort. You're just putting words in people's mouths.

What the hell are you on about? Are you saying that Israel shoul dpay reparations to Russia (and others) simply because some members of the Communist Party in the USSR were Jewish?

Sniff sniff... yep, smells like bullsh1t to me too.

As our American cousins say: if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck. You quack just like a neo-Nazi.

I haven't been indoctrinated into anything. I used the word in the sense that Nazis and neo-nazis use it.

Maybe they didn't really fight on all those fronts! Maybe that's a conspiracy theory too!

You can quibble over numbers, but when you question the scale of the Holcaust, it undermines your credibility. Everyone knows it happened, and a few thousand - even a few hundred thousand - one way or the other doesn't change that. But you spout far too much nonsense for what you present as 'facts' to be taken seriously.

 

[PorcelainSky]

LOL! I actually accepted that Israel had been established to be in some way linked to the gulags thinking about it now of course thats probably total rubbish! Just goes to show how easy it is to get sucked in to reviosinist propaganda!

 

[whatitdoababiboom]

Tut tut!

My approach is that if someone starts out sounding like a nazi then question EVERYTHING that they say.

They might spout a load of figures which look potentially plausable and researched at face value, but never forget that these people have an agenda. Their 'facts' will have been lifted from some very dodgy source.

And even if you get one who starts out sounding reasonable, sooner or later they ALWAYS let something slip which gives them away.

 

[TeS1]

I am not posting on this thread any more,
It's just feeding the troll and I firmly believe in NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS*


*Including subspecie such as national socialists, pure landers etc.

 

[IMnotSAYINGmyNAME]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that works in this particular case. As long as they don't violate the TOS, there is nothing to stop people posting extreme political views on MAP.

Now a lot of these neo-nazis are very sneaky. They try to make it sound like they are posts credible facts, and genuine research. This might fool impressionable young people, or the simple-minded, so I think it is a good idea for those who see through the lies to challenge them.