casual abortion

[luvsingin202]

Care to tell me what either of the two has to do with the other ? Just for your information, lots of ppl have sex before marriage, its a common thing and in fact isn't considered immoral except by the church. And concerning the morals of aborting a baby: Would you like it better if the baby grew up with two parents who had no clue how to handle it or were able to pay for it ?

Christian

 

[ChrisinaJ]

I agree with punisher for once! Theres nothing innately immoral about having sex. remember that marriage is a purely religious construct (that the government uses to its advantage)

 

[JimWaRealist]

I have morals, and I have no problem with sex before marriage. Don't judge everyone by your own moral standard.

 

[AlexisInfectious®]

Working for a company that creates post secondary school software I can say this is false. There is no such provision.



So everyone that came along before the establishment of the major religions is immoral?

Procreation is the second most powerful drive, the only things that are higher priority are self/species preservation.

 

[Menka]

I agree.

You know what I think? The whole sex before marriage thing is one of the most antiquated rules that people still live by.

the rules about sex before marriage I believe are in Leviticus, written thousands of years ago. Back then many things were very different to our lives now. One thing however, was very very different to how it is now, which made 'no sex before marriage' a good idea then, and a pointless Idea now.

You see, people had a much stronger sense of family back then. There were no social services, no one to help out if you had a child out of marriage. Essentially, all of your suppost came from your family and comunity and as having sex almost always equaled babies, and having babies outside of a secure family unit of your parents and the parents of your 'other half' meant almost certain death for you and your child.

These days, contraception means children are not always the result of sex. So sex can be had outside of marriage.

I agree that sex shouldn't happen outside of love but needing a legal contract to be drawn up between you and your partner? needing to change your surname? needing to go through a ritual just to have sex? Come on people, it's not 2000 B.C

To be honest, it's such a small issue that, well, it's not really an issue at all... and if you want, think about it like this....

God created everything right? We're talking about an entity that started the universe and all the life we see around us. God can create life, destroy worlds, move oceans etc. etc. etc. but if you put your penis in a vagina before you have a certificate to say you're married you'll get in trouble? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. That's a rule made by humans, NOT God. It was a good rule at the time, a safety rule at the time, but these days? It doesn't make any sence.

 

[sunshinegirl802]

At the end of the day if we're talking about push coming to shove does a couple really need to be married to each other to raise a child effectivly? I fully intend to be married to the father of my children befor i even go down the route of starting a family. However for some people there isn't the same need for that as i might have.

What children and babies need is love, support and to have their needs provided by their parents, this can be done just as equally by a couple that havn't been trough a ritual as by those that have. But this is taking us off topic again.

Moony

 

[cohen222]

In modern society marrige is no more an ever lasting statment of commitment anyway, so reallin in the context its meaningless.

Oh and moony - of course it keeps going of topic, there really only so much one can debate "casual abortions"...

 

[DRYankee30]

Theres nothing you can get after marriage that you can't get single. Well maybe some tax breaks or something....

 

[Pec]

People talk about banning abortions as though that is the best effective way to deal with something. Theft is banned- so why do I lock my doors when I leave? Murder is banned- so why do I feel the need to learn to protect myself.

Yep. That's all you need to a happy harmonious society- just make all the bad things illegal. And I think we ought to start with those idiots who don't put the shopping carts back up after they have carried their bags to the car.

 

[EarthAngel]

i think that using abortion as a form of contraception is just wrong, but if you get pregnant by mistake and you don't want a baby at all, then an abortion is ok. however i dont think that abortions should be aloud at 24 weeks because the baby has actually started to form. on the other hand its the mothers choice what she wants to do, as in the long run its going to affect only her. well, thats what i think anyway.

 

[hous_bin_farqen]

I doubt that anyone would encorage abortion as a form of contraception, after all there are better less invasive alternatives, even for drunken mistakes - the morning after pill anyone?

What do you think happens specifically at 24 weeks that makes a foetus into a person?

 

[martikat]

Well, the only thing I'm waiting for is Endeavour's pissed off reaction that another thread of his has gone off-topic.

Christian

 

[pAm:t]

It seems like people here are bad at reading comprehension. If you read my last post completely, I said based on my definition of morals. It all comes down to your own definition of morals.


First I'd be concerned if the baby grew up to begin with. If it died, there wouldn't be much growing up. Once you make it so the baby can grow up, then you figure out how to let it grow up correctly. I think if the fetus was not aborted, and had grown up with however bad a life, and was asked at 18 if he was happy that he had not been aborted, I think he'd say that he was glad he was alive.

Second....
Just because the majority does something doesn't make it right. That's why I think using the argument "lots of people do it and its a common thing" is a bad argument. As for the Church being the only entity that makes it wrong...I think you forget the rest of the world and other religions/cultures.


This is a strange comment. You judge yourself and others by your own moral standard, yet you tell me not use my moral standard to judge others. How else do we judge people? We judge people by what we know and what we believe is right.
So I should judge a murderer, for example, by his moral standard? Its the same concept...

Well, this comes back to differences in opinions. I agree that procreation is an incredibly powerful drive. I believe that being human entails being able to control these desires to make yourself better than animals. To me, what is the difference between a person that can't control their desires and a dog that can't control its desires?

For all you people that are bad with reading comprehension, let me say this clearly once again. This is based on my ideas and definition of morals. I believe this definition of morals is correct. I see these strange modified definitions of morals based on convenience to be incorrect. You think its easy to not drink, smoke, have sex outside of marriage, etc.? I try to follow what I think is right. You try to master yourself. Aren't you all martial artists? Maybe learn something outside of combat techniques...like discipline.

I await the approaching storm of angry replies.

 

[pointer1212]

I like going off topic...Its fun .
Punisher's reply is that marriage is meaningless in modern societies.
This is my idea...in general and not directed towards anyone...
Unmarried parents have a greater chance to get separated. The divorce rate in America is over 50%, so imagine how many boyfriends/girlfriends get split up and what the split rate is. It must be huge.
Next: A child being raised by a single parent or divorced parents has a much higher rate of depression, lower test scores, whatever..I don't remember exactly.
Marriage makes it so that the child has a stable home to live in with two parents who are present to fulfill the child's needs. I emphasize stable. Its all about the kids in the end, right?

Marriage is an important part of this society though, despite what you say. For example, if I talk about Mormons and how the men have multiple wives, you will say "blasphemy!". You will say they are evil for doing do. Having sex with multiple people while unmarried isn't considered terrible by many Americans though, because its common practice. I'm a bit confused by this. I think its only made irrelevent because people don't want to restrain themselves...Its a lot easier to do what you want.

 

[HBK]

Murder is defined as a crime by society. Yes, I also consider it to be immoral except in a few specific circumstances, but it's not illegal because I personally consider it to be immoral, iy's illegal for the good of society as a whole.

I don't see how abortion even comes close as an analogy to that, nor sex before marriage for that matter. After all, it's not like we can currently feed the global population, why force people to add to it further rather than getting rid of what's essentially just a bunch of cells at the point at which abotions are performed.

For the record, I personally have issues with abortions after the CNS and brain have formed.

 

[meme223]

Im sorry but I find that very offensive, I was brought up by my mother. I am mentally stable and have a University degree as do many people from single parent families.



Is it just the 'animal' desire to have sex you feel you need to controll? or do you controll your other animal desires like hunger, need for shelter etc.

What makes you think that we are better than animals anyway? Humans are without a doubt the nastiest, most selfish, destructive and violent species on the planet. Just because we have big brains and can think doesnt make us better imo. Btw humans are animals too(although ive met some who are more like vegitables )

 

[IvyN]

Sorry for the terrible analogy. I knew it was a bad example, but I was lazy and couldn't think of a better one. The basic point I was trying to make is that we all judge people and issues by what we think is right. I think you will agree with me on that?

As for feeding the global population...
There actually is enough food to feed everyone in the world. The problem is distribution of it. In America for example, many people are obese because of overeating. Many of those that aren't obese are eating as much as the obese people, but spending hours in the gym exercising to burn it off. Take in calories to live, but then burn them off with useless exercise only for the purpose of burning it off and staying thin. I say eat less. On the other hand, thousands of children are starving and dying in Africa for example, because of lack of food. Take the food that becomes fat on obese people all over the world and send it to poor countries, and world hunger actually ends .
Oh, and I don't think that abortion should be used for population control at all. I know thats probably not what you meant, but I want to clear it up. Once they are a bunch of cells, let them grow. What is an adult human being other than a bunch of cells as well, except specialized in function and more organized? If you want population control, then I think we should focus on alternatives before the embryo is formed.


Sorry for offending you. I didn't mean everyone will be depressed, etc. I just meant that the chance was higher. You turned out fine, so thats great.

lol..I knew someone would say something about humans being animals. I was waiting for it. Yes, you are supposed to be able to control other desires. You can't control sexual desires, but you can control how you behave in response to them. You can't control hunger, but you can control how much you eat. Humans are bad in most cases and different from animals. Instead of adapting to an environment, we destroy it and change it to fit our own needs. No other animal does that. Humans are the nastiest, most selfish, and most violent species, but why? We may be animals, but our brain is more developed. We have the ability to reason, for rational thought. I'll try to think more about what makes us human later; I cant think of anything now. I think we are nasty and selfish because people misuse what makes us human, and nothing more. Good people aren't the ones that kill millions, only the bad ones. Instead of blaming the whole species for that, I blame a few evil people and the ones that allow those people to continue doing evil.

 

[DirkDe]

Funny that MANewbie, most things that ppl do are judged by the majority normally. Minorities don't have much chance to do what they want- think about homosexual couples, for example. In some countries they can't marry, they get blamed for being the cause of AIDS by the church and in fact in some countries can't even adopt a child.Why ? Because the majority is heterosexuals and the church decrees that homosexuals are an abnormality in society. Who wins ? The majority.Now you tell me with your moral standards, where does this fit in ? Who says that gays can't raise a child ?

If you want to go down the complete moral route from the church, maybe ppl shouldn't even date to begin with. Maybe we should do it like it was in the 18.th century where a woman gets married into a family (and this was only in the upper classes)even if she doesn't like the guy. Or despises the sex with him. Thats the thing about morals and laws, you need to adjust them to the times and the church has lost track of time. In fact, by their standards we should still be living in the 18.th century. Now you tell me if your moral standards are still right ?

Christian

 

[cam57]

MANewbie, ever heard of the that phenomen called "pretending to live happily" ? If you think a marriage is necessarily good for a childs life I have to disappoint you greatly. Yes, it may seem that way but the normal, happy marriage doesn't really exist. I have known couples myself that have pretended to be happy together for their childrens sake. And you know what, the child suffered more from them pretending to be happy than it would have knowing his parents aren't getting on anymore and have split. Children aren't stupid,especially what concerns emotional issues and they will notice very quickly if something is wrong.

As for single parents:I was raised by a single parent, a gay single parent, and I'm doing okay. I got a degree from University and even though life wasn't easy at some points I dealt with it. Its easy to judge standards by society if you have gone down that route yourself but what about all the others who haven't ?

Christian

 

[RonnieR]

I say again, studies have shown that theres a higher rate. Its not absolute. Being raised by a single parent doesn't mean that you will automatically be depressed. You turned out fine, and thats great. Sorry to have offended you.
Sometimes pretending to live happily works and other times it doesn't. I think that if both parents are there, and its a reasonably good environment, the child is better off. If its a terrible environment and both parents want a divorce or want to split, they should do it for the kids sake and not their own. I still think they should work on it as much as possible, because its all about the kids, no?


Funny thing is that you are yelling at me for my post, yet you agree with me. You obviously have no problem with homosexuals, even though the majority does, yet you are saying that I'm wrong. Again I say, just because someone is in the majority and has the power to make whatever rules they want, doesn't mean they are right. I'm not Christian by the way, and won't state my stand on homosexuality. What I don't like is when people change the religion to fit themselves instead of changing themselves to fit religion. If religion is truth, then it does not need to be changed. I think that religion in modern times has become kind of a pseudo-religion that is done ritually, but is not truly believed and is not applied in real life as it should be. I see people going to church, listening to the sermon and singing in the quire, and then going home to their girlfriend and child born out of wedlock, watching some pornography, etc.