Taking "God" out of the Holidays

[TayK]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

To the the original question:

I don't understand why anyone would want to remove it from the holidays, people don't have to believe, and are not forced to celebrate for those reasons', if they don't want. You can celibrate for any reason, under any religion, if you choose, if christians', take the time and put the effort into why they celebrate, and what it means to them, I say why care. As far as I know, there is nothing stopping other faiths' from getting to gather for public display. As for it being in schools', I would have to say; religion in my opinion, has no place in school, unless it's a religious school.


For the representation thing:

Basicly, if you feel your faith is being left out, change that, but don't expect other faiths' to do it for a religion, that is not thier own. Other religions', should put them selves' out there and get noticed through thier own efforts. I study alot of pagan religions', and I am not a christian, and I am fine with the way christmas is presented.

 

[musikartguy05]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Nope, not directly. Indirectly.



I wonder, if a Christian somehow finds him/herself oppressed by the fact that some people are oppressed by a religion which is true to them, can they lobby to stop those people who are oppressed by the Christian religion lobbying to stop that feeling of oppression that is, in turn, oppressing Christians?

 

[supercow0003]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

By the way (and for the record), the Judeo-Christianity is historically tolerant and accepting of other religions. The Pentacheuch and the Gospels prohibits the forced imposition of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Certainly there are a few bad apples (i.e., the medieval Roman Catholic Church and modern profiteering televangelists), just like there are in any subsection of society. With over a billion of such all over the world, however, it is fair to say the exceptions are rare and few.

Pax.

 

[JeffersonH]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

If what ZenPolice says is true, then one religion is as good as another. They all lead to the same destination anyway, right? Why not Christianity then, seeing as it already "permeates" Western culture.

Or should a new kind of religion be developed, with the best "representation" of all those thousands of religions found on this planet?

 

[krystinamackinnon]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Because they're badly performed just to get as many kids as possible up on stage?

Can I just stick with 'have a good holiday'.

Pokereligimon!

 

[pearl]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

If we don't teach children diversity in school, how will they learn to respect beliefs and customs outside of their own families and communities? What if Christianity isn't the best path for some of those children to follow? Shouldn't they be allowed to decide for themselves? I am all for religious education in schools, but religious practice does not belong there. It is not fair to students whose religions are not represented. If everybody was willing to celebrate every religious holiday for every faith, and not just those of Christianity, then it would be different. As you have clearly pointed out, however, that is not very practical.

At the same time, I do understand that keeping Christmas out of school entirely seems extreme for many of us. That's not fair to the children either, is it? Holidays are a big deal to kids, and they deserve to be able to celebrate and learn about them with other children in a group environment. Maybe there are more appropriate places for this, however. If religion is that important to a particular family, then they probably belong to a church. What more appropriate place for religious celebration could there be?

In school, we still have all sorts of icons related to the season for children of ALL faiths to celebrate. Snowmen, decorated trees, presents, reindeer, mistletoe...heck, even Santa. All of that seasonal imagery is pretty generic, really. As has been shown, most of these winter icons have pagan roots (it's not a dirty word, you know). We don't have to take all the fun and cheer out of the season.

If certain groups of children decide they want to put on a Christmas play depicting the birth of Jesus, give them the opportunity to do so in the appropriate venue. It should be quite seperate from school activities, however, and entirely optional. Again, maybe the church is a better place for this kind of thing.

There has to be a way to come to some reasonable middle ground on this issue.

 

[sister_godzilla]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

where are we going to put Him/Her/it and then what in the world are we going to do with the extra space, time, and money ?


Now back on topic :
Call it what it is A Capitalist Conspiracy and move along. No more try to apease and hide the real reason behind "ChrisnaHanaYuleSolistiKwanzica" just " spend alot of money on each other (and for the last three years) prove to the terrorists that your not afraid and that we are a peace loving nation after all ... see look christmas sale were up " .

.. is that more middle ground ?


BackFistMonkey

 

[RUNWITSCISSAHHSStt]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

You're comparing this to being told that you must accept Christ or burn in Hell? There's a BIG flaw in your thinking here. The burning building is clearly real. If you don't get your butt out you will be toast. Hell may or may not be real. It is a religious belief, there is no proof. Even if it is real, 66% of the world disagrees with you on the best way to avoid going there. (Thanks for pointing out those statistics, AZeitung! )Christians are being oppressed? In America? In the 21st Century? That's pretty funny.

Nobody is oppressing Christians. If somebody was feeding Christians to lions, you might have a case. (An idea for the next big "realty TV" show?? )That's pretty clever, using my own paragraph and substituting "Judeo-Christianity" for Islam. It doesn't make what you said TRUE, of course, just pedantic.

First of all, you have totally misused the term "Judeo-Christianity". When you use that term, you are referring to both Judaism and Christianity collectively. What you are saying does not apply to Judaism at all. So let's keep things clear. We are talking about Christianity here.

There are more than a "few bad apples" when discussing how Christianity has historically been imposed upon other cultures. This bloody history is so overt and obvious, in fact, it is scarcely worthy of discussion. It has happened all over the world, from Native America to Africa, Central America to the Middle-East. I am not saying all (or even most) Christians endorse this. It is simply a matter of history. Converting the world to Christianity, whether forcefully or not, is built into the religion and is unique to Christianity.Sounds like fascism to me. Next you'll be saying that since a Ford will get you to church as well as a Toyota, everybody should be forced to drive Fords. What if I don't want to drive a Ford? What if I hate Fords because my father had a Ford and it was a piece of junk? Shouldn't I have have both the right and the opportunity to try out some other cars before buying one? *That's the first thing you've said that makes sense. Where do I sign up?


* This was only an analogy. I have nothing against Fords and I don't think they are junk. Well, except Pintos. Those were a big mistake.

 

[LozT]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Like I said, pokereligimon. A religion with the addictiveness and cute merchandising of pokemon, the deep philosophy stolen from any religion and crudely mashed together, and its own cartoon series. If you collect the whole set of philosophies you go to heaven.

 

[TireBiter]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

It's a good idea, but the licensing would be a nightmare! Also, sending the "winners" to heaven could prove to be troublesome, from a legal standpoint. Consider sending them to Disney World, instead, and I think we may be in business.

 

[TheRobster]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

The gospel story says that shepherds were out in the fields at night with their sheep. December 25 is winter in Israel. So is January 6. Winter nights are cold around Jerusalem, and Bethlehem is near Jerusalem. Question: do shepherds sleep outside with their sheep in the winter in Israel? Or would they bring the sheep inside a barn for the night, and sleep in their own home?

I do not know the answer.

 

[PatB]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

I dont think it really matters about dates etc...its the idea that we celebrate the birth of Christ, not his birthday!

 

[NoDoubt]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Not Quite. Basically I said "You do your thing and let me do mine". I never once tried to "evangelize you", please refer to the first sentence. The quote below are your words. Am I twisting the fact that you do not view Christianity in a possitve light?



This is patronizing in the least. I must just be an idiot for thinking that Jesus will come back soon, afterall it's already been 1800 years.




I am sure you would know better then me since you seem to have an incredible knowledge of every religion and what they believe. It's a wonder that there are theologins out tnere that still have not come to a complete knowledge of the Bible and they have been studying for years.




More patronizing ...Your right there is not a single person in this country trying to remove Christianity. Not even the Mayor of Denver. That whole situation is just in the head of that crazy lunatic Pastor.



Actually that info was from a Muslim, he lived in Iran up untill three years ago, all be it he converted to Christianity, so I guess it all depends on the perspective of the messenger. You can not dispute that the Islamic faith was born out of incredible violence and forced conversion. Oh, actually you probably won't see it that way. All muslims are passive.



Listen, as long as you believe that I don't care. I do not believe that this passage is harmless and loving. And the strictest sects of Islam won't agree with you either. You can claim I am ignorant of the facts all you'd like but perhaps I am just not as "open minded" as you. Middle Eastern Muslims don't even consider American Muslims muslims.



I don't think I can even go here. I don't think anything I say to the contrary will be recieved with anything but disdain. Islam is all about peace and love, and Christianity is bad, bad, bad. Oh, and the whole Jesus is the Son of God, and the only way to the Father is through him, and the passage that says "he who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father, who sent him" is also a bunch of bull. Refer to the C.S. Lewis quote.



Intersting how I did not once claim anyone was ignorant, or that their lack of knowledge in any given subject (ie Christianity) was ignorant.

What walls? I believe what I believe, don't say I am building walls because I don't believe what you want me to believe.

As far as I knew believing in Jesus as my personal Savior isn't stepping on anyones toes. Putting a Nativity Scene up on "private" property in front of the Capitol Building in Madison, WI. isn't stepping on any ones toes either.

Perhaps the Christian Majority should say "ENOUGH" and stop allowing Christianity to be slammed by the supposed Christian friendly media, the harmless Atheist, and the Freedom From Religion Organization.

OK this post is very sarcastic in tone and I apologize for that. I really would just like people to stop telling me what I should believe. Allow me the freedom to publicize my religion and Faith how I see fit. And I will allow you the same freedom.

 

[raebaby]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

It's a wonder you would want to be a aligned with any "tree" that would even think to allow such an invasive, intolerant, belief systyem as Christianity to be one of the branches.

 

[Gr33nGr3m1in]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

For those who were wondering about percentages in the US, here are some figures from the Census Bureau (year 2003):

Christian: 76.7%
Other religions (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.): 3.7%
Atheist, agnostic, humanist, secular: 1.0%
"None": 13.2%
Refused to answer the question: 5.4%

This was based on how people identified themselves -- over 60 different groups were mentioned.

So, does the "76%" entitle me to wear my Tau in a public place without being harrassed? (Note the winking smiley; nobody bothers me about my Tau, or the nativity scene in my front window).

 

[linz_b]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

'Kansas votes to Delete Evolution From State's Science Curriculum'
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/featured_articles/990816Amonday.html

 

[t_bird]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

I, on the other hand, think that religious education should be kept out of the schools, but that people should stop going nuts every time there's a nativity play but not a Hanukka one.

And as for the statement in your second sentance, I think you already know my position on that, and here's why.

Some religions say there are many gods, some say there's one, and some say there are no Gods. Some believe that it is morally wrong to eat meet, and some don't. Some believe that God or another figure must save you, some believe that you have the power to do it yourself. Some believe in many lives, some believe in one. Some beileve that you can be reincarnated as animals, some believe only as a human. Some believe there is only one way, some believe there are many. Some allow you to invoke the powers of gods/godesses. Some promice endless joy, and some sufferring. Some promise rejection and scorn in this world and some promise power in it. Some believe that morality is somewhat subjective, some don't. Many have very different moral standards.

Yes, they all in some way deal with the afterlife, and yes, they all deal with powers greater than humans, but that is where the similarity ends. They are all very different, promise different things, and describe different things.

Either one of them is right, or none of them. Whatever supernatural power is or is not out there, there can be only one truth, whether or not anybody understands it, and whether or not everyone believes in it. Ignorance of the truth doesn't somehow make falsitys more real - it just makes everyone more wrong.

There is no other field where anyone would claim that things this different are all the same, or simply that, because we're ignorant of the truth, our false conceptions are any more real. In physics, for example, if two people have drastically different ideas on how something works there are four possibilities.

1. One of them is right.
2. The other is right.
3. Both are demonstratably wrong.
4. There's some other underlying phenomenon that sometimes makes it appear that each of them are right, when in fact, they're both actually wrong.

No one would look at the Michaelson Moorely description of the universe, compare it to Einstein, and say "Well, they both actually make the exact same predictions, so they're both physics, and both lead down the same path, therefore, one is just as good as the other." Despite the fact that they both predict the EXACT same phenomena - we generally agree that Michaelson and Moorely were wrong, and that Einstein was right.

The answer to a question that you like the best isn't necesarrily the right answer. If I had on a physics test chosen to use classical mechanics when something else was called for, because I like classical mechanics best, I would still be wrong, and the professor would call me an idiot.

Newtonian mechanics gives us very good approximations in low speeds - good enough, in fact, that if we use it there, our answers will be close enough to people who do physics the right way that no one will be able to tell the difference. However, that doesn't change the fact that Newtonian mechanics is wrong, and it actually *never* produces correct answers - just nearly correct ones.

Similarly, the fact that a religion compells someone to act the right way doesn't mean that it's just as right as another (of course, many religions would argue that others cause one to act the wrong way).

And rules like this for what is real and what is not don't suddenly stop applying when we talk about religion.

And the thing is, I see it all the time with people on science newsgroups - they think that they can sit around all day, and just feel what is right and wrong. They never come up with the right answers, but then argue vehemently that they are the ones that are right.

Look at Aristotle. He thought he could discover truth by sitting around and thinking about it. The laws of physics that he came up with are almost the exact opposite of the real ones.

Man is a spiritual being so he should be able to examine the spiritual world by meditation, by feeling truth, and by looking into himself? Man is a physical being as well, who experiences physical laws every day, and is made up of physical parts, so shouldn't the same apply? Obviously, and demonstratably it doesn't. Why should it be any different with religion?

BTW, not every religion agrees that we can feel truth, or that we should be allowed to come to our own conclusions. Since you disagree with that, does that make them wrong? Gnostocism is a *particular* form of religion, but it isn't the only one. You seem to be arguing that all religions are right, unless they don't contain the gnostic element that truth can be discerned by the individual by sitting and thinking about it.

Religious education exists for the same purpose as any other education - to teach what is believed to be true to the best of anyone's ability, and weed out all false notions. Most people agree that if you teach someone the truth, and dozens of other falisitys, they will be too confused to determine which is true and which is not. That's definitely true about physics. You wouldn't believe how screwed up about that I was at the age of 14 from reading the internet and theorizing on my own.

Whether it's best for me or not, the truth is the truth, and there's nothing I can want or believe that will change that.

Also, in another thread, I posted several quotes from the bible, about how Jesus specifically states that HE is the only way to salvation. The Christian religion does not allow for other religions to be correct, and there is a plethora of evidence in the bible to back that up. Asking a Christian to believe otherwise is asking him to go against his religion, and I don't think you are even close to comprehending the mindset of Christians (to which you might be thinking - oh I understand, bigoted hatefull, etc. which goes to further prove that you really don't understand).

As for Jews - someone put them on the list of religions that believe you don't have to be Jewish to go to heaven (or whatever it is the believe - be resurrected with God?). I'm pretty sure this isn't true, since they historically considered themselves the chosen people, that they were God's people, and no one else.

And as for Muslims - They do, if I'm not mistaken, believe that Jews and Christians can go to heaven. For a time, for political reasons, they gave "people of the book" status to Hindus (although they still don't seem to get along too well). And I really don't think that there history has been any *less* bloody, and has certainly been at least as political, as Christianitys.

 

[RalphG]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

In Alabama, for example, biology textbooks carry a sticker calling evolution "a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things." The disclaimer adds: "No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact."

I rather like this idea. Call it what it is...a theory.

AZeitung,

Awsome, and well said. I get so carried away with my sarcasm that I often offend. One of many issues I am working on. Thanks for being so articulate.

Merry Christmas

 

[bpeter3196]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Thanks - I actually edited it to add a few more paragraphs. This thing is so long now, I doubt anyone will want to read it. I'm glad at least one person did, though, since even at the time, it was pretty darn long

 

[lola0088]

Taking "God" out of the Holidays

Again, well said. I did indeed read the whole post and your input is excellent.

Just curious...what year are you, and is your major Physics?