parents and non parents.

[helplesslydevoted]

You are wrong here. I've read history books. I've talked with WWII historians. And I grew up with parents who survived the camps. I can tell you without the shred of a doubt, that unless someone has lived it, they just cannot understand it.

And while not anywhere near the same kind of experience, it is also true of parenting. I read everything I could before my first chiold was born. My older sister had a kid when I was 20 and I took care of him once in a while. I've had pets. I can tell you that I was nowhere near prepared for parenthood. Nothing can make you understand the bond. I've been in a room full of crying infants, does not bother me. Then mine started crying. I could pick that up instantly and know what he needed. Those are things you can read about. You can think you understand. But they are so viceral, that until you've experienced it, you have no idea.

 

[HappyCooker]

It should be added that "not understanding" does NOT make you lesser or the parent greater - it means exactly what it says and nothing more.

 

[jessil]

Why would someone understand something they have never done? That just wouldn't make sense.

For example, I understand a lot of the tactics and equipment used in military firefight. I used to participate in simulations of it all the time (when I was about sixteen I played airsoft every weekend, had a good team going too). I shoot guns recreationally and I'm not bad at it in fact. I could sit and rattle off statistics about effective ranges and muzzle velocity of different rounds and weapons.

I don't understand gun fighting. I've never done it, and I'm very happy with that lack of understanding.

 

[animemadness]

I think the correct course of action is for you to have a child Blade. That way, you can know what it's like to actually practice parenting and if you come to the same conclusions on the opinion you have now you will have the heavy hitting hammer of experience to go off of which will be a lot harder to deny or argue with.

Do it for science!













.

 

[agita89]

Ero,

I see we both favour the same high risk approach to comedy. Just in case we both fail to survive the aftermath, it's been great!

paul

 

[cupcakelover]

Thanks. I quite likes you too And Hannibal, and most of the people here. There are a couple I really cant stand, but not many.



Ok.



All the time have to hide. Especially if the people around you are baby and kid centered and lovers and you are the one who dislikes small kids and has no time for them.



Yes. Its actually quite common. People who dont like kids are often looked at as a threat. Child dislikers are frowned upon. Had a poster here say he'd disown me too, just like my brother has. Have I experienced that? Yes. My own brother said I am a threat to his own daughter. And I didnt even do anything except move away from her when she was about 11 months old, and say I dont like small kids.



Nope. No one said that to me.



Nope no boss ever knew about it. My brother acted just like your boss though with me. He'd complain about me to family members anyone who will listen. Even make digs to me on facebook where people can see it, hundreds of them, cause my cousins have hundreds of fb friends. (I have a few hundred too.) I think he got everyone on his side, cause when I went out to visit my aunt and uncle they would say poor (my mom) cause she cant have a relationship with her grandkid. But they never did say poor me, look how her brother is treating her. Even my uncle said about me always not liking babies "you gotta grow up and get outta that" Hello, I didnt choose to be this way, I just am. from the time i was a toddler myself I didnt like them. when i moved away from the toddler, my bro and his gf packed up the daughter and stuff left, and never came back. Said they werent coming up, and Im not allowed down. Im banned pretty much disowned, and they never want their daughter around me. Said im dangerous and a threat because my attitude isnt right for kids to be in. They think I might abuse her because im not fond of small kids.

People treat you as being like akin to pedophile, well its very common for people who arent fond of children to be looked at as akin to potential abuser.



With my family, I dont. Like my brother. And, I have never had it happen tome, but I have been reading about it, and its quite common for the childfree and childless to not have them in the workplace. I'm not joking, you can look it up.



No. But thats because they dont know me. The slurs have come from people I know. I have been called everything. potential abuser, selfish, cold hearted, monster, evil, unempathetic, devoid of empathy, etc.



I wouldn't have before, but now I would call it second class. I would once have agreed with you before. Now, the experiences has changed me. Im not the person I used to be. I never did like small kids, but now am much more suspicious of people with kids. and am much more vocal about the kid issue. and say quite often about kids and parents and all that.

as for not understanding, I still disagree. I don't think one could go up to Stephen F. Cohen (russian history historian and professor) and say Oh he understands nothing, because he didnt live through what his life's work is. even though like you he has spoken to many who lived through the great purge of stalin for example and was a personal friend of the Bukharin family. (Nikolai Bukharin) I simply do not agree with you CanuckMA.

as for being ready for parenting, Yes, I do believe a person can be ready. They will not know everything, of course, but one can prepare for being a parent and say, Ok, Im ready, and get all the stuff they need while trying to conceive (or adopt).

 

[Aizen]

I don't think one needs to experience the particulars of having children to understand that the generalities make it something that someone might wish to avoid. I plan on having children someday, if only for the opportunity to play practical jokes, but can easily understand how someone might think that a jerk and three ferraris are a better deal.

 

[sexyprepster]

So one would also think about a bunch of other life situations that people continuously and unwillingly seem to fall into on a regular basis.

 

[MyPetGoat]

I think there are many things in life you have to experience to fully understand. You may comprehend ideas, sympathize, empathize with people in those situations, but you cannot FULLY understand on all levels of your being what it is like to experience certain things without, well, the experience.

I am not a parent. And I firmly believe I cannot fully deeply understand it because I have not experienced it.

Having to have the experience to understand it is true about many things in life- good and bad. That is why we live it.

 

[sonyaemaharani]

You're like a fish arguing that you can understand what it means for a bird to fly.
And no, kids generally don't feel like they can't wait to be adults. They like being kids just fine.

 

[ninjawarrior]

I couldn't wait to grow up when I was older. Now I'm incredibly disappointed by how dull it is and want to be a kid again

Reading back through the thread I have a couple observations.

The first one is that, and I may just be repeating Holy's first reply here, that the change when you have kids is a chemical thing. Makes sense since all our emotions are. But, while that means people who aren't parents would struggle to understand it empthatically, I've noticed a reluctance among the parents I know to admit that it hinders them in some ways too. I don't want to say emotionally blinded because that's too harsh but I can't think of a better way of putting it.

Anecdotal example would be my mum getting into politics more recently. When one of the child murder cases came up she quite explicitly said we should bring back the death penalty and because I'm an incredibly dull person I asked her why and we got into a small debate about the DP. Her reasoning was basically repeats of "when you have kids you'll understand." To which my response was that if my views change when I have kids it'll be because personal emotions effected my reasoning.

That's a really specific example that probably doesn't prove much but still. Parents seem happy to say that when you have kids it changes you, but then are reluctant to admit it when it might work against them.

The second thing is I completely agree with Blade about how you're treated when you say you don't like babies and small children. I really don't. I can't be bothered to work out if its a fear of doing something wrong, introvertness making me very reluctant to be silly in a group of people to amuse a kid, or just a case of having nothing in common with a small baby.

But whatever the reason the reaction you get from people when you express that is incredibly patronising. You're either treated like a leper and ignored, told "oh you'll grow out of it" in a very condescending tone, or have people repeatedly try to force the kid on you to get you to change your mind. And all of those have happened to me from various people with different kids so I doubt its a case of one family member being a twit.

I mean I get it. You've had a kid, you're understandably very happy and you want everyone to share in your joy. But it seems very difficuilt for parents to accept not everyone feels the same way about their pride and joy. Parents of newborns I can be more forgiving of since I imagine they're still ecstatic, but I've seen it with parents of toddlers too.

 

[Pinkpuppy]

I think that you make some very good points, Southpaw.

Personally, I always wanted to be a dad, ever since I was a little kid. I never felt pressurised to become a parent, but I suppose I would have pressurised myself if I hadn't, because it was important to me.

And I've also seen the kind of pressure that gets put on those who prefer not to have children. My sister chose to remain childless, and my mum was desperately disappointed about it for the rest of her life. And boy did she let my sister (and every one else) know about it!

 

[JeremyC]

I know exactly what you mean. There are smug fools in all walks of life, so it's no great surprise that some parents fall under that banner!

There are parents who patronise childless people for being childless, and vice-versa. I don't think that either parents or the childless have got a monopoly on smugness.

Haters will hate, and douchecanoes will, er, do whatever it is that douchecanoes do!

 

[RebelSoldier111]

That's a really good point. I've seen a few child free things on facebook and they're all really smug and insulting about the problems parents have complained about on fb somewhere. Even by the general circle jerky nature of interest groups on facebook those were particularly venemous.

 

[y_ourself]

Chemicals are probably involved, but not the only thing. Having children also gives you a perspective you just don't see as a non parent.

Take sex for example. While you're having sex, and just before and after, chemicals are involved. But having had sex also gives you a longer lasting understanding of sex, which has nothing to do with the cocktail of hormones that got released into your brain at the time. Which is also why people can react differently towards sex, depending on the earlier experiences they've had. At that point, the chemicals are long gone, but the experiences and psychological impact remain.

As for hindering... that is a matter of semantics. I agree that in some ways, having children is a limitation. You can no longer 'leave it all behind'. And you always have to take the kids into account with everything you do. On the other hand, having childrens can also make a person stronger. More resilient. You go through rough times and you keep going because quitting is just not an option.

 

[sweetiepie10293]

Your new perspective is based off your new emotional outlook because you have a child to look after/protect. That's all down to hormones and chemicals, same as any emotion.

I don't think the sex example is directly comparable. Having a child might give you a better understanding of the emotional part, but an understanding of parenting? There are plenty of issues parents disagree over or do differently. If it gave you some sort of insight or knowledge beyond the emotional changes then I'd expect more uniform parenting.

 

[AmericanIdolLover]

Also for parenting, because as a parent you know your child and you know that some things really don't work for your specific child or as commons sense dictates. People without children often regard parenting as a 'one size fits all', and that people who don't follow that approach either do it wrong, or don't want to do it because they think their baby is 'too precious'.

That is not just the chemicals talking, that is also 'walking a mile in those shoes' which teaches you that there is a big difference between theory and reality.

 

[spring]

Parents do that as well though. I've heard plenty criticise others because they're doing something differently. Obvious example being how many older people criticise modern parents for not beating their kids.

 

[Fishguy]

Grrr. I don't like that either. I frequent childfree places on the net, and it's all too often I read them say a good smack will solve everything, your discipline problems, for example. I disagree, because its more complicated than that. Also, I don't believe in hitting kids.

I'm loving this discussion, by the way. I think its a good idea for good issues to talk about and debate.

I don't compare it to sex either. The attitude I had before sex is still the same as I had before I lost my V card. Nothing's changed for me.

I agree with southpaw, that the reason people might feel different about the capital punishment after they had kids is likely much more emotion based than logically, because you think of your own dna is here now and what if it happened to them.

I still think non parents can understand parenting.

 

[Susanthemom]

Sure they can. As has been stated, every parent was a former non-parent. And many of us grew up at least being uncertain about wanting kids or not. Personally, I was absolutely certain I didn't. We all know how that worked out. (And, obviously, how it happened in the first place.)

So I agree with the idea that parents often DO understand non-parents. They've experienced it, oftentimes. But that's a one-way street. You're always a non-parent on the way to being a parent. But once you're a parent, there's generally no going back. Even in cases of divorce or something even worse, you're changed by the experience of having kids. Even if you're no longer practically involved in the process of raising them.



Again, as has been said, most kids seem pretty content with being kids. Even when they say "I can't wait to...," it's because they have no realistic understanding of the age they're describing. They want to eat ice cream for dinner. They don't want to pay taxes, attend staff meetings, and swing by the dry cleaners.

This is no value judgment on you, Blade. But no, I don't believe you can fully understand parenting. Any more than I can fully understand any major life decision I haven't personally made and experienced. Doesn't make you worse than me in any way. I'll grant you that parents do sometimes come off as smug. And I believe that's a coping mechanism to deal with all the sacrifices that they make in order to raise children. Believe me, I still daydream plenty about a cool car, carefree weekends, etc.



I think they can respect each other. But that's different. About half the people I know are consciously not having children. And that's A-OK with me. I don't pretend I've gone down a better path. I love my children dearly. As I should. I don't love children generally. But I certainly relate to them generally better than I used to.



Because it's very difficult to describe the changes without coming off as (pick one): syrupy, resentful, ecstatic, paranoid, tearful, or barking lunatic.

The way I started describing it early on was that it's like having your heart on the wrong side of your rib cage. When I had no kids, obviously I could be hurt. But I had the capacity to defend myself.

Now, there are three little extensions of me out there. And I can only defend them so far. And some of the things I'll want to protect them from, I shouldn't anyway. Because that's just life. And you have to live it in order to grow as a person.

That said, I live every moment of my life wracking my brain trying to spare my kids misfortune, make sure they're happy and healthy, and figure out how to defend a territory that's grown exponentially. Prior to kids, I didn't care how many registered sex offenders live within 5 miles of my home. Now, that statistic is abjectly horrifying.

At the same time, if you'd told me that a simple smile could reliably bring me to tears, I'd have said you were insane.

Being a parent doesn't make me better than you. Mostly, I feel more vulnerable. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I couldn't continue on in any reasonable way if anything ever happened to one of my children. That's not hyperbole. I don't think I could do it. Simple as that.

On a brighter note, I look at my kids and I'm filled with pride, hope, and love. And that's where it gets really difficult to explain it without sounding like a soppy idiot. Maybe that's where the discord you feel comes from, Blade. I don't really know HOW to tell you fully how it's different. That's part of where that parent camaraderie comes from. We don't HAVE to. The other party already knows.

All that said, I do understand part of where you're coming from. I didn't have kids until later than some of my friends. So I certainly spent time around parents whilst not being one. I get the feeling that things have shifted without you. I really do. I think you'd get a lot more sympathy for your position if you simply stopped comparing babies to 1) insects, 2) vermin, or 3) viruses. I'd invite anyone who thinks that's harsh to do a full review of how you've chosen to express your concerns on this issue. Nobody reacts to the fact that you don't want kids. They react to how you opt to characterize those who do as well as the kids themselves.