Continuation of a theme? Persians vs. Greeks

I don't know. I suspect it would've been difficult to take your place in the citizenry without a male mentor, and the tenor of these mentorships (Socrates notwithstanding) was often sexual.

Anal sex with a woman was certain 'unnatural', though I doubt this meant it wasn't enjoyed frequently.
 
Here we are again bro... Just you and me. Same kind of moon same kind of jungle. Real number 10 remember... Whole platoon, 32 men chopped into meat... We walk out just you and me, nobody else. Right on top huh? Not a scratch... Not a ****in' scratch. ...They'll come back again. And when he does I'm gonna cut your name right into him... I'M GONNA CUT YOUR NAME RIGHT INTO HIM!
 
If you are arguing that "it could have happened, so it did" then it's a bad argument. Its possible that many things got lost in the oral tradition, but we cannot pick and choose which non-existant referrences we wish to throw into the work. The Illiad is silent on this issue--an issue is the central motivation of Achilles wrath against the Trojans. Its pretty important to ignore.



From Greek to Greek?

what I mean is some cultural subtexts, not just language.[/QUOTE

Greek culture to Greek culture? We are only talking about a few hundred years. Besides it would make no sense for a culture that approved of same sex relations would leave such an interpretation out.



That presumes that all friends had sex with each other, this runs counter to everything that I learned about the culture. But again, the relationship is a key point in the story, one would think it would be mentioned if it were important.



Points for citing sources. However, all of them are from hundreds of years after the stories of the Achilles were created. What they do illustrate is that the Greeks were open to the idea that there might have been a sexual aspect to the friendship.

Sorry if it sounds like I am nit picking, but if you want evidence then you need to go to the Homeric stories, not the new stuff. Remember that there are stories regarding Achilles outside of the Illiad. Unless these make that point, you can't say that Achilles and Patroclus were lovers any more than you can say Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock were lovers.

Which brings my final point. This is all fiction anyway.
Click to expand...
 
Well, there is Plato's story about the couples in search of their other half... The way I remember it, the three primordial couples included a male-female pair, a male-male pair, and a female-female pair. Don't know if they used the terms we do.
 
Recieving anal penetration from a man, repulses me. But I read that in twin studies that if one is gay theres something like less than 50% that the other is gay. So my repulsion must just come from my upbringing. Im not homophobic though.

Edit: this thread should be voted for most off topic.
 
hehe... Aww Jeshro - long time no see bro... mentions of man-on-man anal penetration and look what crawls out of the woodwork.
 
I am blanking which writing that came from, but yeah, that was one explanation about "love". I think it was the Symposium?




The point, which you seem to have missed, is that if an epic poem in an oral tradition gets handed down over several generations, some things change, some things remain the same, others just disappear, and new stuff gets added. If my recollection is correct, this is what happened wit the Iliad, and therefore one possible explanation for the declarative statement "Achilles and Patroclus are queer" may have disappeared.




You are aware of how large and how many cultures were part of the Greek Empire by the end, correct? It's hardly impossible. Remember, these are people who couldn't even see one god the same way one city-state over.




Yes it would. Compare how we view "Ellen" with how we view "Will and Grace" or "Six Feet Under". Ellen was groundbreaking for having a major gay character come out; "Will and Grace" was less groundbreaking, and by "Six Feet Under", "The Class", and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" it was like, "oh look, gay chartacters." It is quite possible that people experienced this as such a regular part of life, especially those in the more well-educated classes, that it didn't need to smack them in the face. They knew it for what it was. (William Armstrong Percy III, "Reconsiderations about Greek Homosexualities," in Same–Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West, Binghamton, 2005)



Then sadly your education was mistaken.



They're better sources than you've cited, and they're better sources than someone analyzing the text in 2007. But please, if you have a source form the time the piece was written which says "no, Achilles and Patroclus were not lovers" then feel free to post it.

Look, they're queer. So were the Spartans. So was Alexander and almost every other famous person we read about from that time period. Get over it.



My info comes from:
a. Other sources from Greece
b. Historians interpreting those sources
c. Reading the Iliad several times.
d. Reading the history of paederasty in Greek culture.

Comparing Achilles and Patroclus, characters written in a time where same-sex relations were not just accepted but part of growing up to Star Trek is just plain silly.



Fiction is a representation of the predominant culture. It's one of the ways in which historians and anthropologists can accurately learn about a culture. And to the Helenic Pagan Community, which contains a few friends of mine, it's not just a story
 
Slightly off and I guess kinda on topic.. also may be a bit of a spoiler for anyone planning to see "300", I'm not giving any plot away though..

Anyway, just got back from the cinema after watching "300". I must say it is the biggest load of trollop I have ever seen. Now, I am trying to be skeptical, but seriously it really looks like this film was commissioned by Bush for his anti-Iranian campaign, the timing is also impeccable. Its either some bizarre coincidence or just plain blatant propaganda. It not only dehumanizes the Persians and makes them out to be dirty, corrupt, dishonorable monsters, but funnily enough, some of the political discussions in the movie sound like they came straight out of Bush's mouth. It was ridiculous to watch. But hey, see for yourself its a good laugh and looks pretty, though do leave your brain at home.

P.S. I know a few Greek people, none of the Spartans looked Greek to me.. surprisingly they looked like northern Europeans.. hmmm…
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Persians being corrupt, dirty, dishonest etc. is not modern day propoganda but the way the Persians were portrayed in Frank Miller's graphic novel. Which after all is what the movie is based on, not the event from a historical standpoint.
 
Dont realy know much about that, fair enough though. But regradless, it just looks like propaganda, check out the film, you should be able to see what I mean.
 
Not at all. The Spartans wore armor and were arranged in a defensive Phalanx in order to protect them from being penetrated by the long, thrusting spears of their opponents. However, the big burly Spartans had no problem with thrusting their mighty spear shafts into the Persians. But in the end, the Persians were able to overcome the unwilling Spartans with their thrusting pike staffs and completely f**ked them over, which angered the Greeks causing them to rise up and come together.

Flaming, your statement above shows that this distaste of being penetrated continues to this day. Slip, I think we can therefore answer your question in the affirmative. I'd elaborate more, but I feel like I need a shower right about now.
 
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