Christians, if Isaiah 52-53 is a Messianic prophecy about Jesus....?

[MythDispeller]

.... then why do other Scriptures within the same prophetic context refer to Israel as "My Servant"?

Isaiah 41:8: "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."
Isaiah 44:1: "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen"
Isaiah 49:3: "And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified"


Do Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11 in any way qualify the "My Servant" mentioned here as being a different servant than in the previous prophecies?
Did Jesus have "offspring"?

Isaiah 53:10
But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His **offspring**,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
If we're going to take Isaiah 53:10 figuratively, why not take the rest of it figuratively as well?
Seems a stretch to me - Israel does not really mean Israel; Jacob does not really mean Jacob; David does not really mean David.... sounds like a case of the writers of the New Testament trying to make Old Testament prophecies "fit" the story they wanted people to believe.
Also note that your quote from the Talmud clearly refers to Messiah as "another David," not as the David of the Old Testament. And forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe the prophecy that you are referring to that Christians interpret as Jesus is Jeremiah 30:9? Again, no contextual reason to think of this as a prophecy of anyone other than the literal King David. And I can show you countless more examples of Old Testament verses that have been violently wrenched from their contexts in an attempt to equate them with Jesus in the gospels.
Jeremiah 30:9 "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

I don't see it. Where is the reference to David as representing Messiah? Are you saying that, in this verse, "the LORD their God" and "David their king" are the same individual?
Additionally, is it not also prophesied that there will be a resurrection of the dead? I assume that resurrection would include David, since he was a "man after God's own heart," yes? (1 Samuel 13:14) If so then how does the future tense of the verb "will raise up" prove that the verse in question is not referring to the literal king David?
The only verse I see as being a possible reference to Messiah here is the vague reference to "their governor" in verse 21: "And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD." Besides, is the context of the book of Jeremiah not dealing with the Babylonian captivity? Why would the context suddenly shift in Jeremiah 30?
The problem is the rabbis (correctly) realized that Jeremiah 30 had failed to fully come to pass, because all of the tribes of Israel were not returned from the Babylonian captivity - only Judah, Benjamin, and a few from the tribe of Levi. Hence they were looking for a future fulfillment that would "fit" the prophecy more completely.

 

[HTacianas_II]

Jesus has more "offspring" than anyone in history.

And if you back up a bit to Isaiah 53:8&9 you'll see that the servant died before he saw his offspring, but lived to see them anyway.

But considering that the entire world marks time by his birth I think it's a little late in the game to be arguing messianic prophecies.

 

[truthbearer]

No. Israel is Christ. Israel was a heavenly name/spirit being, in heaven, long before Jacob lived.
Jesus is called many things in Scripture, for identification of Character; He is called David, in many places. He is called Joshua, Hilkiah, Zerrubabble, and many other names. Jerusalem was also his name and so was Shiloh.
This is the very reason many people miss the truth of the word: they put things which are about Christ to earthly men.
How could the man, Jacob, be the salvation to the whole world? or the covenant of the people? this is Jesus and none other. How could Jacob open blind eyes? Read the whole chapter and see if earthly Jacob could possibly fit these things. No way!

 

[DavidS1]

The reasons Christians feel justified in saying 52 and 53 refer to Jesus is because as a son (of the line of) David, and of Judah, he qualifies, individually for all the other designations. They could apply to one human being even as it is directed at the nation. That happens often in how the prophets received them wherein God was speaking to the prophet but also to the nation, or God was speaking to a leader as well as a whole nation. Christians see Jesus as the head of Israel, then and now. I know this seems offencive to those who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah but if you understand (outside of mistranslated Catholic doctrines) the Book of Hebrews clearly says that Jesus is/was the High Priest. Remember how the story of the wise men say they came to see the new King? Christians literally see Jesus that way, and as such, may be referred to (thought of) as the embodiment of the whole nation (Israel). This may be hard for Jews to understand since a great many who claim to be Christians have or were following a fabricated antisemitic Jesus. Jesus never repented of being Jewish. Neither did any of his first 12 main leaders. He was never ashamed of having a Jewess for a mother. Those who have acted otherwise have done all of us great harm in what peace can exist, understanding, all those things.

 

[mmmmmmmmmmmmmm12]

Israel 49 can't be about the nation of Israel because the servant named "Israel" in Isaiah 49 is:

-"to raise up the tribes of Jacob" (v. 6)
"to restore the preserved of Israel" (v. 6)
-to be "a light to the Gentiles" (v. 6)

Now, if the servant Israel in Isa. 49 is referring to the NATION of Israel, then please tell me how the nation of Israel "raises up" (this can also mean "resurrects") ITSELF? How can the nation of Israel restore ITSELF? Furthermore, we all know that Yeshua was "a light to the Gentiles" more than any other Jewish person in history.

Also, let's look at Isaiah 49:5. It says that the servant Israel is

-"to bring Jacob again to Him, although Israel is not gathered"

If the servant Israel is the nation of Israel, does this make sense: "the nation of Israel is to bring back Jacob again to Him, although ISRAEL is not gathered."

The Messiah is the "servant" named "Israel" in Isaiah 49. Just as he is elsewhere called by the name of his ancestor "David," he is also called by the name "Israel."

It can't be the nation of Israel because the Messiah is clearly responsible for gathering and restoring the nation of Israel (Isa. 11:11-12).

*Edit: Oh, right. Clearly the NT authors had a hidden agenda. *rolls eyes* Well, does that mean the rabbis in the Talmud did too because they also applied the name David to the Messiah.

Soncino translation, Sanhedrin 98b:

R. Nahman said: if he [the Messiah] is of those living [to day], it might be one like myself, as it is written, And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governors shall proceed from the midst of them. Rab said: if he is of the living, it would be our holy Master; if of the dead, it would have been Daniel the most desirable man. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: The Holy One, blessed be He, will raise up another David for us, as it is written, But they shall serve the Lord their God, and
David their king, whom I will raise up unto them: not ‘I raised up’, but ‘I will raise up’ is said.

Edit 2: It's clearly saying that the "David" spoken of in Jer. 30 is the Messiah because the verb precludes its application to king David himself.

Edit 3: The context of the entire passage pertains to the Messiah. The comment by Rabbi Yehuda about Jeremiah 30 was made with the Messiah in mind. Now, had they not been previously speaking about the Messiah, clearly you'd have a case. Context, however, says otherwise.