Palestenian-Israeli Conflict

[Cyrus]

Those that dislike Israel because of their policies in the occuppied areas, do you think your policies would be any different? What other country has faced the constant terrorism that Israel has? Don't you think that their policies are aimed at self preservation? And wouldn't your policies also be aimed at self preservation?

As Medi said, the stated objective before the Six Day War was to eradicate Israel. The stated objective since then has been to eradicate Israel. If you don't think that will impact how you treat the people who are saying that, you are not living in the real world and probably won't be living for long.

[Ghetto]

People see the Palestian side more now than ever. 9/11 had nothing to do with it.

The existance of Israel is the main rallying call of islamic extremism. Even Al Qeida cites it. Hamas is an extremist group that would rather conduct attacks against civilans than negotiate peace.



As previously mention, six day war and other conflicts were caused as a result of Islamic extremism.

The wall Israel built was to prevent Suicide attacks is in fact a component against Islamic terrorism. Its been quite effective reducing attacks by more than 90%. Of course Europe and the UN are against the wall seeing it as a border grab.

If Europe recognizes Islamic terrorism more now than ever, its probably because of large Islamic population within their own borders. The Mulsim cartoons come to mind. France & Australia haven had mass rioting by Islamic youths. Germany and other countries with large Islamic populations fear repitition of those riots. The death of the film maker Van Gogh in Denmark. Madrid & London were hit. The 9/11 terrorists operated out of Hamburg Germany. None of this has drawn sympathy for Israel.

Hamas doesn't want to negotiate peace and they have replaced a group that did. Thats a problem for Israel. Iran finances terror attacks against Israel. If Iran nukes up, they will either step up attacks or attack Israel directly. Israel doesn't want a nuke going off in its own borders, nor does it want nukes trom go off on neiboring countries.



I am not PC means I believe in freedom of expression reguardless of whether its offensive or not. You gave no indication that it was not serious comment prior. This idea that Jews control the media is a stupid one.

[ladybee12]

Perhaps instead of always citing Islamic extremism as the cause, you could look at the way Israel was formed as the cause of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict =/. The sudden mass migration of people with the intention of forming their own country in the middle of Arab lands could be an idea. Could this be why Palestinian people don't accept the existence of Israel? If you are saying religion is the cause of this conflict, I'd say Jewish extremism is just as much of a cause of this conflict as is Islamic extremism.

Medi:
Why bother replying. After reading that post, it looks like you don't understand my logic.

Newlearner:
Yes, Israel's policies are aimed at self-preservation, now that Israel has been formed in the manner it was. Whether what Israel is preserving is legitimate is what the conflict is about. Perhaps we could look at the other side as well though? No one here has even attempted to post anything from the Palestinian perspective. Could the Palestinians be fighting for a reason, or are they mindless terrorists bent on murder as well? I'll go with the former, and I hope the rest of you will as well. It's very easy to take one side and demonize the other.

These replies seem to prove me correct as well. Everyone is more focused on the evils of "Islamic extremism" now and is more sympathetic to Israel because of this. I assure you that this was not such a big topic before 9/11. Well, these replies were expected, so no problem.

The thread has degenerated into a Palestine-Israel conflict thread and "Islamic extremists are the main problem of the world" thread, and that was not my intention. Sorry for that. If you all cannot agree with me that Israel benefited the most, I at least hope we all gained something from this, though that is doubtful.

[JoJo27]

What you call directly benefitting doesn't really work for me. Though I am hard pressed to find a better word than 'directly benefitted' myself.

It does bring to mind that since Bush went on his crusade many other governments have used it as green light to freely crackdown on any group in within their borders they see fit. Seemingly all they've had to do is to label them 'terrorists' and everyone turns a blind eye to their persecution.

The Chinese government clamped down severely on the Uygars. They used the whole charade of 'terrorism' to justify it. Undoubtedly convenient because of the foreign policy of the United States during the current administration. They constantly refer to the word 'terrorism' when Tibet comes up. As if a load of monks were running around like Jihadi's and threatening the CCCP.

The Russians have run amok in trying to wipe out the Chechens. In doing so they really stuck their foot in it as well. They've got their own minature Afghanistan. You'd have thought getting the pants beat off them in Afghanistan was enough.

The Burmese military junta methodically stamps out any opposition through brutal methods and have continuously held Aung San Suu Kyi since her democratically elected party won the election to govern. No doubt that General Ne Win has shored up his power base by calling anyone that stands against him a 'terrorist'... again - taking a page from the book of Bush.

There are many other governments that have done the same. It's incredible that so many can get away with it when the 'police man of the world' is busy sticking their foot in it in Iraq.

MA Newbie - FWIW - I agree with your stance on Israel and how they have used the 'war on terrorism' to shore up their legitimacy. But be forewarned it's often that when you say anything against Israel immediately everyone runs around screaming anti-semitic.

[turtlemansam28]

I understand it perfectly, I just think it's a huge leap to go from "Since 9/11 Israel is benefitting from sympathy for their position" to "Israel instigated 9/11"


It's a non sequitur.

You're happy to argue that Islamic terrorism in Israel is justified, yet can't accept the simple explanation that people of a similar mentality may have gone a step further and attacked the USA directly... apparently, that has to be a conspiracy instigated by George Bush or the Israelis, despite a laughable lack of evidence that any such conspiracy took place, and despite numerous attacks around the world. I guess the Israelis have been really busy keeping up the illusion that Islamic terrorists do actually exist

[Minnow]

This is an excellent post.

I have no problem is you disagree with the existance of Israel but don't add Jews control the media. That is anti semetic.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qeida don't just kill non Muslims but any Muslims they dislike.

[MichaelMathews]

How are all modern countries formed? Isn't it formed by whoever controls that land deciding what to do with it? Both the Palestianians and the Jews believe they had a right to that land. The Jews were given part of that land and at least partly because so many groups hated them.

Could part of the reason be that the Palestinians just want their land back? Yes. But only to a very small degree. Has any other place promoted such hatred, murder, and terrorism aboout just land? It is more than about land. It is a personal hatred and a religious belief that they must control that land.

I find it hard to post from a Palestinian perspective. What would be that perspective? The majority who like the majority of Jews that just want to live? Or the minority that say because you retaliated for our 8 bombings and killing of 100 school children, we are going to kill a thousand more?

Should we focus on the majority that suffer long checkposts and other problems because the few Palestinians that are terrorists that are trying to kill every Jew they can or should we accept that the Jews have a right to try and live? How much time do you think I have spent in security checklines because I fly every week for work? Add that I wear a knee brace with metal in it, and I get the extra screening every single time.

[key]

The problem is that often when you hear people saying something against Israel, it is anti-semitic.

I have never understood how one relatively small and insignificant group could have gathered so much hate.

[joevsyou]

Moot point though really isn't it?
Might doesn't equal right. That much of the middle east was carved up by the British during the Great Game doesn't irrespective of tribal boundaries or existing accepted borders amongst the indigenous people doesn't somehow make it all well and fine.

It wasn't... it's not... and therein lies the problem.




Again - that there was at the time lots of anti-Jewish sentiment doesn't equate to that land being lotted out to solve that problem as being right. I don't really think that solved the problem anyhow. It wasn't as if as soon as Israel was created there was somehow less anti-semmitism in the world. Perhaps just the opposite if you add the number of Arabs and Palestinians who were angered by the land grab.



How is it that you figure the Palestinians wanting there land back factors in as such a 'small degree'? I'd say it's the underlying theme of the entire issue and central to the whole mess. Please clarify how you figure it's a 'small degree'?



Your really talking out of your hat here. You presume to speak for all Palestinians and we know that it doesn't exactly work that way.
Whether or not it's a religious belief that they must control that land is again a moot point as many Jews, Christians and Zionists believe the same exact thing. Yes I am sure you could look at many other places that have just as big issues about land... but... it's really more than land isn't it. It's about economic viability and about the ability to access free markets with which to build an economy. Something that Israel does very well at stopping the Palestinians from doing.



Unless you're a Palestinian I don't think you're ever going to be 100% bang on in trying to post from their perspective anyhow. The majority of Palestinians like many Jews would rather just get on live in peace... unfortunately there is a very vocal and very violent minority that sees the only way out of this mess through means of violence.

Up until recently it's been very clear to see that Israel was not willing to budge on handing any Palestinian land back - so the violent minority figured that terrorism is the only means to achieve getting the land back. Do I agree with it? No. Do most people? No. But you very much have a David and Goliath situation here... Israel with it's massive dependancy on US aid and military technology can easily keep the Palestinians where they want them... the fact that Israel is the lap dog of US foreign policy in the middle east pretty much assures that the US administration won't give 2 cents regard to what the Palestinians want. So where does that leave it? It leaves the only option for many young frustrated, unemployed, uneducated, poverty stricken Palestinians to do what? Not really too hard to figure out is it?

Terrorism against Israel.

One mans terrorism is always another man's freedom fighter. All of this which keeps everyone in the weapons sales community more than happy because it means qoutas get consistantly met. No surprise there either.



Err... who said it had to be an either/or situation?
It's the classic polarization of issues again. You seem to gloss over the point that many areas that Jews are living in are areas that have been taken from the Palestinians. Not really something to gloss over is it? But then again it depends on which end of the polarization you happen to be standing. If you're a Jew it's very convenient... if your a Palestinian it's not so convenient.




What does that have to do with this? Are you crossing the border between Palestinian areas and Israel?

[melieroxx_24]

Really? Here on MAP?
Can you please point out the threads? I am sure the MOD's are not exactly going to stand for that.

I find that when the subject of Israel comes up anyone who doesn't tow the Israeli line is jumped on a being anti-semitic. Which of course is rubbish. I find that most people that pro Israeli dont' waste any time in calling anyone an anti-semite who disagree's with their views on Israel.

Again - blind polarization never really helped any issue. I don't think it's going to do wonders for this one.



There are many theories as to why the Jews have excited so much hate over the centuries.. There are probably whole volumes of thesis on the subject. I'm not sure how you figure that they are 'relatively small and insignificant' though. I think if you look back through history you will find that they were key players in many areas of history.