TMA vs MMA? More correctly, combat sports vs non combat sports?

[Kyle1172]

Which is superior, state your reasons why, I want depth and substance people!

As in the title some very old martial arts compete in full contact sports, some compete light contact, some don't. So what are your views on the differences. I want a mature discussion no hate please

Furthermore! I have yet to see anyone show me traditional Taekwondo, as it was founded in 1955 and before that there was a series of arts it is derived from (taekkyon for example) but they are different arts, how does this make it any more traditional than say muay thai which derives from muay boran which is as old as 5000 years but is also not the same as muay thai.

Can you really call muay thai, BJJ or kickboxing modern when it derives from traditional arts much like TKD does? The same applies to Kyokushin Karate.
@ Man of Faith - Zero substance, you haven't stated why one is better for protecting your life than the other etc. You have just stated some philosophical nonsense. "only insecure children continue this argument." - I believe I stated mature discussion with no hate, stick to the answer. Furthermore asking the question has nothing to do with ego, I genuinely want to see what substance TMA supporters can come up with, so far there has been little on the time I've been on yahoo.
@both of you - yes there are some rules, but you do not compete so when it is real you are useless as you have no experience, Jim you claim to have done this but I have never seen anything like it on youtube, or heard of it, fights in the real world look like mma fights or boxing matches or wrestling, not like Liam Neeson on Taken. Also you still both can't help yourselves with the name calling, as such disciplined martial artists of however many years you claim to be you are less mature in an argument with a martial artist of 3 years (1.5 dedicated) who is 18 years old...
@ Jim R - That is a very ignorant comment, many, many, many self defence situations are caught on camera, there is cctv there are bystanders, if such things (liam neeson style disabling of an opponent) had occurred they would be on camera, the only strikes I have seen ending it straight of are sport combat style strikes, high kicks, knees to the head via the clinch or basic good old boxing for nearly all.


@ firstmanever interesting answer, I find your lack of any insults refreshing too, a true martial artist

"Self-defense - When an attacker actively penetrates another's space in order to cause harm. The aggression in this situation is completely one-sided."

This to me lacks logic, as unless you are utterly flawless then in a self defence situation both participants will exchange blows, with aggression coming from both sides, there are some fights with pre-emptive strikes KO'ing, but these strikes often fail or the hostility is too equal for such a thing to take
@ Kokoro, the first video is a man using basic boxing, that isn't TMA, it is my side so you messed up there, the more people he beats the better it makes me look.

Second video, nothing hand to hand is taught that can defend you from a gang with knives and half an office to thrown at you... Third video look at how they fight, scrambling and rolling around, no ninja moves... how does tma prepare you more for multiple people than mma?

Police arresting you has nothing to do with anything, do you see police arresting you as part of your dojo training....

Fourth video: So your trainers in TMA prep you for that by sneaking up and right hooking you full power when you are walking down the street to work? -.- every point you have is so damn stupid!

Fifth video: you're telling me you practise defence against baseball bats and brass knuckles? Yeah right, multiple opponents with weapons will beat anyone short of mike tyson.
Unhanded combat typically always looks like mma, armed combat obviously looks different, will you send me a video of someone getting shot next? stop being ridiculous, weapons and gangs are almost impossible to beat and your lack of hard sparring and competition make you much worse off than mmartists.

[callsignfuzzy]

It's a false dichotomy. Anything can have a competitive format. I can (and have) taught boxing as a method of self-defense, just as it was taught for many, many years in the West; T'ai Chi and Aikido, of all things, have competitions.

The training methods utilized by so-called "combat sports" have a lot of merit. Attribute- and skill-building methods such as "shark drills", (good) focus-mitt training, and hard-contact sparring produce someone capable of defending themselves at a faster rate than compliant drills only, and a focus on punching the air or stationary object, and light- or non-contact sparring alone. While those latter methods are good up to a point, they're incomplete if we're talking a true system for reaching one to apply their skills, But training methods aren't the property of any single system. I've seen these methods used in karate, Taekwondo, Chinese martial arts, and more; they're just not the staple that tends to be found in systems like BJJ, boxing, and so on.

[Jacob]

To address some of the points above. Mma only limits very few effective techniques and 90% of that list above are not rules inhibiting performance. Yes eye gouging is effective, however in order to goug your opponent you need to beat him in a exchange of strikes first. And yes punching in back of the head is effective, but again you either need to drop him with strikes or out wrestle him to get him in that position. Because combat sports puts you in a real fight and most of training involves sparring they have a big advantage when it comes to a real situation. A large portion of martial artist have never been in a real fight before because a lot don't compete and raley sparr. Martial arts are based on a theory, combat sports are based on practical moves learned from real sparring and competing. Knowing how to do something and being able to do it are two different things. Last, in a real situation a attacker might not follow rules but neither does the fighter.

[Llman]

I don't know if this is an answer to the specific question or not. For me, a power strike will be almost always of the traditional nature. That is if there's time for it(pretty open and/or unexpected) a rare gift. But take it if you got it. Most of the time strikes will be an approximation within the confines of time and distance,and what's being held or pulled on that will throw the balance into less than optimum situations.Then you need some mixture of arts to really be at a comfort zone. Compared to a boxer,mixed would be the norm,with traditional saved for a clean knockout.

[Possum]

Hmmm... combat sports vs non-combat sports.

Ok:
MMA vs... Hockey. I vote hockey any day, because those guys are on steroids and are monsters. I wouldn't mess with them. They have an advantage: they have great armor, work with weapons, fight on difficult terrain, and are adept at dealing with multiple opponents (eleven at once!). When they fight, anything goes - no rules. No one stops them. And yet, it is clearly a non-combat sport.

So my answer is hockey.

Pffffttttt!

By the way, it would help the rest of us if you would kindly grace us with your ignorance by indicating what you think you mean by "MMA" and "TMA".

[JimR]

actually for sports I do prefer non-fighting sports.
Baseball is a favourite.

And since you seen to have a knot, I will explain another thing that shouldn't need explaining. You are comparing trains and plains. We never ever said TMA was better, we said it is different, and you wouldn't be whining so much if you weren't trying to prove something you even know is not right.
I say they are different, not better or worse. Cry all you like, and sports and protection arts will remain different. If they weren't different you wouldn't need to whine, so your tears prove our point.
They are just different. How that insults anybody, even you kids, I can't figure.

edit: MoF, we can't win. I won every time, and every time I was told I "cheated". Still didn't win, lol.
They don't get it that we never fight. I never did fight, but I took a lot of guys out. Saves fighting.

You won't see it on stupid u-tube either, I didn't have a photographer handy when I was knifed. You don't get it pn purpose.

Yours is intentional ignorance, designed not for information, but to cause trouble, so I am done with you. If you don't want to believe experience, please do remain arrogant and stupid.

[kokoro]

and perhaps you should take your own advice and stop insulting others? how many times did you call people on here idiots, and stupid. if you want to be treated like an adult then why do you act like a child?
you only want to hear and read what you want to and dismiss any thing that disagrees with you, just like a child does.


"fights in the real world look like mma fights or boxing matches or wrestling"

4 vs 1, show me an mma match like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLxejDX3Ppg
Ahh here we go multiple people with knifes, do you see that in mma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrYUUIrR2o
oh I see this in mma starts, out one one on one and then goes to two on one,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vWkOSFMgQU
and then the police come and arrest the parties, do you see that in mma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB94Zuzg6GM
hit from behind with no warring and the person is minding their own business, does that happen in mma. stiking a person who isnt even ready to start fighting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebJBVqrZHGM
throwing stuff, baseball bats, brass knuckles and then the arrests, is that allowed in mma too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERdmqFOzgnc

mma is not real word fighting, show me one mma match like any of those fights i posted.

the definition of traditional is something that goes back more then 2 generations:
a generation is 20 years. so a traditional is 40yrs old

muay thai, bjj, boxing, go back hundreds of years. karate goes back about 300 to 400 years, but most styles didnt come around until the early 1900's. styles before the 1900's classified differently.

jim are posted this about modern and traditional ages
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130224074344AAqajyX


Edit:>
I didn't mess up those are all street fights. No rules multiple opponents and weapons. You said mma is just like street fighting. How is any of that in mma. how is multiple people attacking mma, how is weapons mma.
a lot of that was unarmed combat as well, just with multiple people thats how rel fights happen, not with rules or a ref, and no judges
and yes we do prepare for weapon attacks, we spar on ice, and in bleaches as well as stairwells, and even in the water. you only prepare for the ring. few real fights happen on flat surfaces and padded floors. many are against multiple opponents, and weapons. weapons and multiple opponents are not impossible to beat. that old man beat 4 people half his age. you can find many videos of real situations with weapons and multiple opponents. its not easy but it is possible
and then there is the sucker punch from behind. unless you have eyes in back of your head or are aware of the persons intent there is no avoiding it.

and btw we do contact and full contact sparing. your comments only proves you know nothing of our training. all you do is make blind statements and and have no facts.


so your original statement
""fights in the real world look like mma fights or boxing matches or wrestling"
again how is mma like a real fight if there are no rules, weapons are allowed and multiple people are as well


"lack of hard sparring and competition make you much worse off than mmartists."
this statement here proves to use you are nothing but a child. it proves you have no idea what you are talking about
and it also proves your question is complete bs. you dont want to know the truth, because your an arrogant, closemind child.
you make complete bs statements and have no idea what you are taking about. all you want is an argument and could care less about the truth. just like a child.

[firstmanever]

Superior for what? Self-defense? Fighting? In my opinion those are two drastically different things.

Self-defense - When an attacker actively penetrates another's space in order to cause harm. The aggression in this situation is completely one-sided.

Fight - when two or more people agree with each other in either spoken (sport match) or unspoken (streetlight) rules. Each party is agreeing to the challenge and there is no one clear aggressor.

In combat sports, you are taught to be offensive and defensive at the same time. Each person when attacking(offense), is not only trying to attack but, also making sure he/she is not going to be attacked by the other fighter(defense). Practitioners of combat sports train to go several rounds and train to trade hits so they can keep going.

In a true TMA you are taught simply to defend yourself from a dedicated attack where the attacker's only purpose is to attack. They are not usually considering what your response to their attack will be they in essence are going "all in" on their attack. The defenders only purpose is to defend themselves from this attack and neutralize the attack as soon as possible.

I know that the line seems blurry here but, there really is a different dynamic to a fight and self-defense situation. Therefore a different mindset for each situation and that's really the difference. that being said, I certainly think that someone who has experience in combat sports has a better chance in a self-defense situation then someone with no training. There are several benefits to training any martial art. I also know from experience and coming from a TMA that is solely self-defense based, that trying to spar someone from a combat sport background, is not productive. I keep trying to close the space and neutralize them and they keep trying to maintain the space and score points, we both wound up injured and it was pointless.

As far as TKD, Muay Thai, and BJJ goes I don't know much about the history of them and can't speak to how "traditional" they may or may not be. Again, I don't find either one superior to other per se' but, each art/style has its strengths and weaknesses and I respect them all. I know a lot of MMA guys who are excellent martial artists and I know a lot of TMA guys who are terrible martial artists. that's just the way of things.