can I still learn "real" karate or kempo?

[K_JKD]

I don't mean what most people would call karate or kempo.

I mean the ones where they teach you to parry & strike with the same hand simultaneously

They learned to pull back their fist on the side, directly under the arm after a strike. However, today when karateka pull back after a strike, they bring their fist back to their hip.

or all schools stuck on the parry with one hand and strike with the other method that the old bushi like choki motobo were so dead against?

Would I have to go to Okinawa to learn this method?
I guess I mean the form that wasn't watered down for school children but the karate for the bushi
@ keyboard warrior - good troll answer dumb@$$ lol real informative... I want information so obviosly not whatever I want troll goof
@ Jim r - I read an interview from choki motobu and in it he say about the pulling your hand back to your hip.

"This never works during an actual fight. I believe that the proper technique is to put power and strength into pulling back your fist. Today this looks to me very strange, to put so much power into striking with your fist. I would use only 80% of power when I extend a strike with my fist, but 100% of power when I pull it back."

hares the link - http://motobu-ryu.org/jissendan_en.aspx
@ Daoshi - Apparently he did the interview in 1936 and I know he never learned his familys style but he learned from the best of the best like matsumura, sakuma both from shuri and matsumora from tomari and pechin kunigami (kunjan in okinawan) and Itosu, as well as on occasion by "yanbaru" kunishi from Kumoji and they were warriors and he knew their style
@ pugpaws - that makes a lot of sense I do a lot of the same stuff.

@ ymasakur - yeah I learned it in wing chun originally and I know karate & wing chun share common roots so I want to learn a karate style simmular to the no bs I learned there as I am not too interested in points sparring lol.
@ brian - its up to me if real karate still exists? lol
thanks everyone I just wanted to get back into Karate & Kempo but the schools around here are very sports oriented and I know a few dans one in Goju-ryu & one in Wado-ryu but they are points sparring champions who don't know bunkai or oyo but I should ask their sensie's.

@Ymasakur - I don't just want to learn the trapping I want to learn all the other stuff along with it as well I find that important as well and I want to learn more about the roots of my style which was heavily influenced by wing chun.

Bruce said karate sucked but I don't think he ever met anyone the calibur of choki motobo to compare his thesis too so I want to learn the stuff choki knew that was actually related to wing chun that he probably didn't know.

[JimR]

You are in luck. There indeed exist real dojo that do not water it down to sport. All karate teaches what you seek. The retraction of the hand to the side or hip (slightly different ryu) are not about "posing", or "chambering", what ever that is. This represents a grapple, drawing the opponent in toward you, usually for a strike. Like very advanced dirty boxing.
You may need to search a bit, but a school or at least a teacher is out there for you. Just search him/her out. Ask about bunkai, and oyo. If the instructor doesn't understand that, keep looking.
Best of luck to you.

edit: Motobu's statement does not conflict with my own here. It works slightly different in real applications, as those are fluid and unpredictable. Quickly withdrawing the hand is another matter. In practice it returns to guard position, not the hip. The hand returning to the hip or side represents the grappling of an opponent to unbalance him, and to land a perfect strike,or apply a lock, throw, etc.

[Daoshi]

Concerning what Motobu Sensei is saying, He is not taking into account that the Chinese Southern Styles like Hung Ga use this, even though it is not at the very waist, but a little higher, these techniques are still grapples. And we don't know at what point in his life he wrote this essay. Take into account that Motobu Sensei was not taught his Family's art - Motobu Udundi, until he was an older adult. Motobu is from the Royal Bloodline.

Regarding the Parry - just because a style teaches you to parry with one hand and attack with the other, does not make it not "real", that's the way you learn when you train in Partial Arts, which is to say - learning the movement and the obvious and basic bunkai, but not learning that there is so much more than what is obvious. Another thing about the Parry that is not apparent is that it is also an attack.

Just like a Kick is not a Kick - A Punch is not a Punch. The term "block" does not exist in the Okinawan Dialect. When we read "uke", it translates to "Receive"... to take... to possess. How do possess something?? Blocking is putting something in the way. This is not what Karate does.

I used that technique quite a few times when I was working in protection services.

Again, what is apparent to you has a multitude of meaning to me.

I

[pugpaws2]

I practice and teach a system of Kempo that is relatively unheard of. We strike, evade, and (deflect, re-direct, or grab) at the same time. Anyone that must do one thing before another as in doing a block, then a strike, then X, then Y, ...... is not using their style as it was intended. They are as you stated stuck in a mindset that is not the highest level of application. I don;t mean to brag, but i often teach seminars where few if any of the attendees can do more than one action at a time. They are totally amazed that I am able to intercept what ever attack they use, then control everything from there. I intercept their attack and finish the fight. I do not move away, or allow the attacker any opportunity or ability to keep attacking. Real fighting should at the highest level always be over in one to five seconds. Sparring so as to trade techniques back and forth is not real fighting. nor was it intended to be. It is merely a training tool.

By the way.... We never pose with our fist on our hip. Unless, I am grabbing someones wrist and pulling it to my hip as I strike.We do not hold our hands in any particular place, or start a strike, punch, or kick from a set place. We use our hands and feet as needed from where ever they happen to be at that instant.

Since you are JKD oriented I will say that my Kempo style exhibits many of the concepts that Bruce Lee taught. Things like attacking the attack, intercepting and controlling the attacking arm/leg/...etc. In 1975 I had the honor of training in Charlotte, N.C. with Sifu Larry Hartsell (deceased). Hartsell was a direct student of Bruce Lee. When he taught me these concepts, I thought they were new concepts. but as I got older and more experienced in my Kempo style, I realized that we had
those concepts already. They were not stressed until a student was an advanced student. By then, they already had the skills to make the concepts actually work.



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