Send me an email at [email protected]. I do have messenger but I won't be on for awhile. I'll be happy to respond to anyone who isn't just writing to flame me. I want these debates to expand my understanding of christianity and hopefully help at least a few people to move past it. If you have any questions about my points or just think I can answer a general religious question I'll be happy to answer.
I broke this up into two sections. The first deals with why God can not logically exist. The second is about how horrible religion is for us as people. If you want to argue both then please split them up. I understand that the second is far more speculative then the first and I'm not trying to state it as fact. It's just some observations I've made. However, I am perfectly willing to debate either one.
FREE WILL
Free will can NOT exist. I'll make this simple. Now lets pretend for a moment that christianity is correct. God created all of us. It's also stated in the bible that God knows our actions before we make them. Since he is our creator and he knows our actions before me make them...hmmm, that doesn't quite add up for free will now does it? It can't even be explained with "Gods ways are mysterious, who are we to try and understand them?" because it just plains doesn't make any freaking sense. The usual argument against this is that the nature of Gods omnipotence is unkown. Perhaps he knows all the possible futures but not what choices we will make. The problem here is that it's very clearly stated that God knows all. Everything. The whole shibang. If a Christian were to use this argument they would be saying that there are things God does NOT know. That's very clearly a direct contradiction to what the bible says. This kind of self serving double talk just further goes to discredit the bible. But ok, I'll admit that this is a possibility. There's no real way to disprove it. But it's only ever mentioned because it's convenient to believe. There's no evidence to support it. Much like Christianity in general. This is one example of how religious arguments begin with the end in mind and never try to reach an intelligent conclusion.
Now lets assume that all of the above is irrelevant. If God existed and wanted us to believe in him, love him, and live our lives by the (mostly common sense) guidelines he gives us then there is no reason for him not to make himself more obvious. One way for him to do that would be to let the innocent people who grew up believing in something different that they had bought a one way ticket straight to hell just because of where they were born. Maybe he'll mention it as they fly past the pearly gates.
We also have to face the fact that if he knew all of the people who would be born and turn against him (sending them straight to hell) he essentially just made them so they could suffer for eternity. That doesn't quite jive with the general "peace and love" theme the bible has going. In fact I'd go so far as to say that only a being of pure evil could be so cruel. Once again don't give me that "god can not be understood by man" crap. This is very simple HE MAKES PEOPLE SO THEY WILL SUFFER FOREVER! But don't worry, because the bible is full of such drastic contradictions, thus making the entire book a horrible joke.
There is absolutely no reason for us to believe in a outdated, often mistranslated book that was written in a time of extreme ignorance. As intelligent human beings we owe it to ourselves to not simply accept foolish teachings like these and expand our minds to accept other possibilities.
ARTIFICIAL VALUES
In life we struggle. No one will debate this. These struggles eventually go a long way in defining who we are. How we deal with our issues, face these challenges, and the conclusions we come to after all is said and done is who we are. Religion makes all of this essentially unnecessary. It gives us all the values we need. So ask yourself, what kind of person is attracted to this system of thought? What kind of person needs to find the strength and values to live in a book instead of themselves? The weak. These people might accomplish great things and manage to live without ever straying far from these values but a more personal strength could have gotten them so much more.
When we arrive at conclusions on our own with no guidance and no "magic book" to tell us the way; we live up to all the potential humanity has to offer. Imagine someone who finds the strength to live with honor, to never take the easy way, and always do what they believe is right. This person will always be stronger then someone who gets their values from a book because it will be a integral part of who they are.
Very interesting responses. They're the most intelligent I've found so far.
moondogg - I'm under the impression that the all knowing nature of god is explained in the bible. How would a religious person justify the believe that god is not all knowing given the biblicial evidence? Or am I wrong in thinking that the bible says god is omniscient?
The idea behind my second point was to say that those who find their own reasons to be honorable are stronger people then christians. Could you link me to this argument you mentioned?
Urrelles - Text books are facts, easily proven to be so, and universally accepted. The bible relies on what I see as irrational faith and the spreading of its ignorance damages our ability to accept other ideas. To tell a person not to hurt another gets the idea across. The be hurt by another and KNOW that you never want to inflict such pain on someone else is something else entirely.
(continued)
That god often gives seemingly illogical tasks does not prove that the bible and god in general is logical. By pointing out the free will/omniscience paradox I meant to say that the entire bible should be suspect.
Using the bible how can it be shown that god is not all knowing? The tests he puts people through are not enough. It is my belief that the bible was written just as any other superstitious piece of work partly to teach values and mostly to provide answers to the unanswerable. Such tests are a good way a superstitious text could get that across.
Looks like I've finally found some people who can teach me something. Thanks guys for proving that christians can do more then play the faith card. I was losing hope for a while there.
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